I can't imagine they intend on giving out refunds to everyone who has been cheated in the past. I think that would require an extraordinary amount of time, effort and money to compensate everybody. As long as it is done every time a cheater is found going forward I'd say that is good progress. If this is an isolated PR move, and we don't hear about compensation any time again soon, then I think we can draw conclusions on the motives behind the ones we just heard about.

Hi vortex:

The WPN forum was part of their advertising package. For it to return, two things need to happen:

1. We (2+2) have to be willing to accept advertising from WPN.

2. WPN would like to advertise on 2+2 again.

Notice that even if #1 becomes true, it doesn't mean that #2 will become true.

Best wishes,
Mason

I understand you guys need money to keep running the forums, i do. Closing forums hurts the players more than WPN IMO.

I agree with this!
I wanted to talk with my fellow regs from Jackpot Sit and gos and now I don't know where to find them.

Also, I've seen WPN started to refund at least some cash-game players.

I would like to ask if has anyone from HU and Jackpot sit and gos got refunded too?

In both games there were so many bots playing that it's ridiculous if none of us (real players) got refunded. Also, on jackpot sit and gos, they could be colluding too,we don't know. That I don't have proofs, but bots I'm 100% sure that there were many. One of the main reason is Jackpot sit and gos offers weekly rakerace, so having bots playing there with good rakeback is such a great deal.

Sorry for my bad english.

Closing the sub-forum and removing WPN's advertising also hurt 2+2 more than it hurt WPN, but it was still the right thing to do.

I don't see how closing the forum hurts the players. WPN used the forum to help market their product, and that is the only reason. By closing one avenue to market their product ideally WPN will realize it needs to take cheating more seriously which will provide a safer environment for people to play.

I'm also really hoping for refunds and removal of bots in jackpots. They've been infested for a while.

I doubt it happens.

ACR knows if it gives a few refunds to a small number of people and sends an email about it, the word would get around (on a site that just banned their advertising) that ACR is doing something. It's all smoke and mirrors.

They've actually done a decent amount since all of this happened. I'm not sure how much is a direct result, but they've fixed the mtt problem, started working on the bot problem, which is never ending on any site, improved the chat function, etc.

This may all seem relatively basic, but for WPN it's a big step in the right direction considering their history. Hopefully things continue this way moving forward.

What improvements did they make to the chat function, and how is the improvement related to game integrity?

The captcha-like bot test has been in place since at least June 2017:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...highlight=test
But they seem to have only rarely used that tool, until Joey's videos came out.

I agree with this. But at this point WPN has earned my cynicism, so I expect that they will go back to ignoring game integrity soon.

I've had my hand auto folded twice pre already. Last one was KK vs a Russian player at nl25 and before either happened.

I got the PT4 log

This can't be a legit post can it?

One thing's for sure - it doesn't belong here.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...-desk-1112097/

That doesn't surprise me.

Some of it was meant towards other posters. A lot of people were praising the mods as soon as the WPN sub forum was shut down. I just found that surprising. As it should have been done sooner and was nothing more of an exercise of incompetence, as a result.

I'm still trying to figure out why a guy like Bobo, a Canadian with access to Pokerstars, is the one moderating American poker sub forums. As if he has American's best interests in mind. Improving the situation for American players does absolutely nothing for a Canadian. Hence, the apathy over the years.

I just think Americans should have an American moderator who is looking out for their best interest in American site sub forums. As the interest of American players applies directly to the moderator himself when that moderator is from the same country.

What difference does it make to a Canadian like Bobo whether, or not the situation improves for American players?

The two things are in no way, shape, or form related. You obviously have a bone to pick with us on advertising, and there's already an ATF thread where you could do so without having to try and create some kind of weird connection. But this thread hasn't had a very clear direction for some time now, so I guess I might as well respond here.

Not sure what I've personally done that's being singled out here - care to elaborate?

OK, so I'm curious how you think things should have worked. In your world, do we shut down advertising from a site as soon as some bot operators start posting about playing on a site? Do we have an investigative team that attempts to determine when a site has passed a certain threshold of good security? How, in your mind, should this really work?

And how does this compare to how things work in the rest of the advertising world? Do you believe that newspapers, magazines, TV and radio stations are constantly investigating their advertisers' business practices?

I think it's easy to sit back after the fact and say that we should have shut down advertising at point X or Y, but it's not usually as cut-and-dry at the time as it appears after the fact. I don't ask these questions in some kind of cynical or sarcastic fashion, nor to prove you wrong in some way - I genuinely would like to hear your thoughts on this with a little more depth than that "2+2 should have done this years ago".

No, it's not the only reason. That was a factor, as was FreshThyme's thread in ATF (that was what most directly got things started), as was other people who have brought attention to issues in the past. And I'm not sure why that's scary. Pretty much any time advertising has been, or will be, pulled from our site, it's likely to be because of concerns brought forth by our members, as they're the ones who are going to be having direct experiences with the poker sites. Much like when other media turns away advertising from corporations that have wronged people or engaged in unethical practices - this happens when customers' concerns become well-known.

First off, I assume this is just some imprecise language use - the moderators have nothing to answer for. They're volunteers posters who have been kind enough to spend some time helping out on the forums - they aren't paid, and they don't make any decisions WRT advertising.

Secondly, to say that we couldn't care less about anything else is pretty ridiculous.

It seems neither of us know what you are talking about. You quote me then address issues that have nothing to do with what I was referencing. Further, Bobo had nothing to do with what I was saying nor the post I was replying.

Two misguided posts out of two posts in total. How many times have you been banned?

Again, what interest does a Canadian have in moderating American poker sub forums?

In the pre-Black Friday days the mods actually played on the sites. So, it makes sense that a person would dedicate time to moderating. As is the case with the American mods who actually play on American facing sites now. But, you're a Canadian. Those other mods you're referring to who volunteer for this stuff are directly impacted by their decisions. Yet, you spend more time moderating these American subforums than all of them combined. Why is that?

Why do you spend so much time moderating threads pertaining to American facing sites? These sites don't impact you in any way. As a result, you shouldn't have a problem with an American mod taking over your responsibilities in American site threads and sub forums, would you?

I think that would be beneficial, at this point. No more Canadian mods in American poker sub forums please. We need mods directly impacted by their decisions. There are plenty of other threads on the forum for you to go screw up Bobo. You're no longer needed, or wanted in American threads and sub forums.

Wow, I hardly know how to respond to that diatribe.

I will say that any additional posts of a similar ilk do not belong in this thread and will be removed with prejudice.

I suggest visiting the About The Forums (ATF) forum if you'd like to post more on the subject. There is an ATF WPN Advertising thread where those types of posts may belong. Or feel free to start a new ATF thread if you so desire.

Thank you for your cooperation.

I'll prove right now that you guys are making a profit off of advertising.

If every penny WPN paid your site went towards necessary operating costs, then 2 + 2 would've been shut down the second you pulled their adds. You guys clearly have an excess of funds coming in from advertising and this very well could be the motivation for failing to take action the past few years.

That extra chromosome you have isn't helping any. 2+2 IS a business. Businesses tend to have goals of generating profits.

Bobo just said everyone who moderates is a volunteer.

Somebody is getting some money somewhere. There wouldn't be a profit if that wasn't the case. Normally, there wouldn't be a problem, but when poor decisions are made based on receiving that profit, then it is a problem.

One usually says "again" when repeating something. This is the first time I've seen you bring nationality into the discussion.

There are no American poker sub forums here. I guess you have some kind of Americentric point of view that makes you think only Americans can play on WPN and other sites? But either way, I'm not sure why it matters where moderators are from.

Well, the only other really active mod in the Internet Poker forum is European. How it came to be that there are no Americans actively modding the forum would be a long and boring story that goes back a number of years. But you're the first person I can remember bringing it up any time recently (perhaps ever) - is there a particular problem that you think needs addressing?

Well, thanks for your input, I guess.

There's really not a need to prove something that obvious, is there?

Yes, 2+2 makes a profit. That's why it exists.

As I asked you in my previous post:

And I'll add to this that you seem to think that WPN is so terrible that we should have removed them years ago. Yet only a few months ago you were posting repeatedly about what WPN needs to do to improve their tournaments. If a site is so dreadful that we need to remove their advertising, why would you care about how they run their tournaments?

Correct.

Right. The site ownership makes money. I get paid for dealing with advertisers. There are a couple of other employees. Our moderators are volunteers.

I'll direct you again to my previous questions about those "poor decisions".

I've peeled potatoes with more brains than you. Shoo....

I've been busy working on some other things over the past month but I have been keeping track of these developments.

I just checked my WPN account and I certainly didn't receive a penny back from them and I've been playing on the site and being ripped off for years. What's done is done but what's the bottom line here? Are you guys still playing here and taking a wait and see approach (as if things have changed or are truly changing) or is this site pretty much one that pros are avoiding now?

Thanks

As a Canadian, I find it appalling that a fellow Canadian like Bobo doesn't bring more hockey discussion into an American poker forum. Doesn't he realize this is how Canada is going to rule the world? We are going to slip stick, pucks and maple syrup into the psyche of Americans one by one and take over!