I've been saying that all along, their hands are tied with what they can do to alter the software.

I still think 2+2 heads and WPN Rep should communicate in their sub-forums without all the player noise to get the ball moving.

Dude- Sit back, breathe and gather your thoughts. Save it all up for one good post. You'll thank me afterwards, and your mother will be proud.

Sorry Bobo but this is very misleading. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by spinning this as a non-issue, but I *promise* if we start doing real digging into the way the WPN forum was moderated, it WILL NOT LOOK GOOD. period. using the number of threads that were removed is in no way indicative of the shady over-reaching use of moderating powers.

again, this really isn't about you or Thrash.

but lets have someone who was less involved in the whole thing look into the number of posts removed, deleted, and EDITED by undercover moderator Thrash in the WPN sub forum. Let's start with addressing the issues I raised with the manner in which he was implemented and used as an unofficial mod.

Yes, there were people trolling and plenty of rigtards, but there were also plenty of legitimate complaints, suspicions and attempts to gather information for the purpose of investigating suspicious activity that were removed and edited .

deleted posts will not tell the full story either.

Time for someone other than Bobo and Trash to look into this.

can we change the title of the thread to "tin foil hat thread pt. 2" once again the idiots in this forum have turned a potential productive thread into an abortion of nonsensical posts. What posts may or may not have been deleted is completely irrelevant here. What is important is we can find out once and for all how serious WPN takes cheating. Anything else comes a distant second.

Why, who cares?

Don't mind him, that's Kavilla, known for his antics in taking any topic to the absolute extreme.

But really, can we send all the people posting random nonsense back to NVG so this thread can serve some sort of purpose?

Deleted posts WILL NOT TELL THE WHOLE STORY. Let the investigation commence.

Bobo Fett, are you now, or have you ever been, a moderator of a 2+2 forum or forums?

OK, let's unpack this a bit then. First of all, I said it was a side issue, not a non-issue. In other words, there are a lot more important issues than the speculations of you and a handful of other people as to whether WPN and/or Thrash deleted more posts than you believe they should have. Did they delete posts about bots? Yes, absolutely. Is it even in the top 5 concerns people do or should have about what's been discussed in this thread? No, I don't think so.

You say you don't know what I'm trying to accomplish by spinning this. Hmm. I wonder what that could mean? Do you think, just maybe, this might be because there is nothing for me to accomplish by doing so? Perhaps I'm not actually attempting to spin anything? Here's what I was trying to do - put a stop to the ridiculous derail a few of you had taken this thread on.

You promise? Really?? I don't think you have any idea how it would look. TBH, I think if there was an easy way for me to figure out exactly how many posts and threads about bots had been edited or deleted, versus what remains, you'd be looking pretty silly. But I won't promise that, because even though I'm able to find out more than you can, I haven't painstakingly gone through every thread to be 100% confident of what I think is true. I like to be pretty confident about something before I'll promise what the outcome will be. But that's just me.

OK. So, what is?

Yeah, you keep saying that, and then you keep on besmirching our names. Like you continue to do below.

I'm sorry to tell you that you're not going to get a Warren Commission on this. The only people who can even see what posts and threads have been deleted are mods of that forum, or admins. Pretty sure none of them are going to be spending countless hours trying to find deleted posts for you. I'll help you out as best I can, if you have some specific threads you'd like me to check on. But apparently I'm in on it, and spinning it to accomplish you don't know what, so perhaps that's no help to you.

OK. Can you tell me what threads they might have been in?

Oh. So now that doesn't tell the story either. So are we looking for fingerprints, DNA samples, blood trails, or...?

Oh, look, another swipe at my integrity. Considering that "this really isn't about [me]", you seem to do this pretty often.

It matters because it show's negative intent on WPN's side. Ex., While ignoring all the question's going on in a boatload of threads the rep would come in and post a promotion about some tourny. People would naturally asked if they had fixed issue X or what they were going to do about issue Y (legit questions btw before they drop their hard-earned money on said tourney) and instead of providing ANY type of answer the questions would be deleted by the next day.

This is EXACTLY the issue with this network and why everyone is tinfoiling, they can't answer straight-forward questions about legitimate issues.

Why did you ask to have threads/posts deleted when people brought forward issues regarding bots before Joey's Youtube vids? What changed in your mind and why?

Also, I think it's funny that I'm almost positive that one of the questions in those threads that was deleted was your own asking if they had or where going to fix the late reg issue.

The point of all this is the MAIN issue with WPN not some tangent issue: They aren't publicly acknowledging that their is issues and what they are going to do about it.

It doesn't matter much if some of the issues have been fixed or if they are randomly refunding random players (where's my refund, as I've played a few hundred thousand hands between 2NL and 50NL the last couple of years) it's that they aren't communicating with their most important player base at all and instead are either ignoring the questions completely or were deleting the questions. This points to a deeper issue that is at the root of all of this and needs to be found and resolved.

I never asked for anything to be deleted, I asked for it to be combined into a single thread for bots and to me moderated so it was "zomg bot!" so that the people with real information could post and be seen by others.

Where are you trying to go with this? The mods are trying to cover it up and now I am too? I was probably the most critical poster of WPN in their sub-forum(at least as far as non rigtards go)and anyone that spent any time in there will tell you that. WPN is quite irritated with me about this thread and some of my other posts (I talk with them frequently), but I said what I felt needed to be said and always have.

I never said it didn't matter, I was trying to get the point across that it doesn't matter TO THIS THREAD. This thread should be about getting WPN to clean up the network. What was deleted in a closed sub forum is way, way down the list of importance here.

And you aren't understanding my point which is in line with this thread: WPN need to communicate and be more transparent with it's customers and entities such as 2+2 instead of ignoring everyone and trying to push it all under the rug.

That's an understandable point of view. If you feel that way, then I expect that you'll be watching for them to change that. But I don't think anyone's unclear on WPN's past level of transparency at this point.

If you think that Mergin's and other's lambasting of Thrash, or you interrogating FreshThyme about his past posts, is in any way helpful to this thread or the issue at large, I'm not sure what to tell you other than I strongly disagree.

Well I'm done with this thread. I was only questioning FreshThyme because he's making my spidey sense tingle by flip-flopping, etc. I just think there's something shady there with him, but am not quite sure what it is.

Most of these bot accusers are really just poor Poker players. They think just because theyre winning on other sites that they should be winning here too. They aren't winning so they find others to blame. They don't understand that WPN is a hard site to play on because most of the players here are the same ones you watch on TV. There isn't any other site that has high GTDs during the weekdays for them to play on. If they were actually winning, we wouldn't hear about any of this. I know some of the top tier players on this site and they win and play big live. Some ultra high stakes players just play low stakes here to release steam. Never once have I heard them complain about bots.

Except that, as he explained, he didn't.

Oh, that's very cool of you. Nothing like a "sort of" accusation that you can't back up with anything, and he can't defend because "you are not quite sure what it is". Nice.

Yeah, if all you were here for was adding innuendo, that's probably best.

And now he's even disrespecting Spiderman. How low can it go?

Thank you Bobo and Mason for the work you are doing.

Long time on/off wpn mtt reg here, so not as close to the botting issue as some. Longtime 2+2 lurker.

From my perspective it seems reasonable to limit 2+2s association with a network that has mounting evidence of not dealing with game integrity, however it appears to me that:

1) WPN resolved the late reg loophole?
2) WPN Removed DON's likely due to accepting collusion risk was too high(not perfect but better than leaving them up)?
3) There are now reports of captcha style checks and some accounts being banned, is this confirmed?

It appears to me steps are being taken to rectify the issues, just communication, likely caught in red tape of having to check higher up the chain before answering certain subjects, is abysmal and lacking and customer support is also lacking.

I would like to see communication improve, and customer support improve, and these steps to improve integrity be verified and doubled down on.

But for me wpn is still profitable, and as a U.S. player still what i believe is my best option for mtt's. And the closing of the forum seems bad for wpn, bad for the players, and good for 2+2s rep but bad for 2+2s revenue. I hope that if the actions for integrity improvement listed above are indeed occuring and is verified, that the forum will return.

If a mod deleted all your posts in this thread, this would be a much better read.

Yeah, because it doesn't matter that WPN completely refused to communicate with anyone officially about anything. That just doesn't matter as long as issues are being silently addressed and random players get a refund.

I'll say it one last time and then I'm done. The main issue is NOT the botting, colluding, whatever else that is or was going on. The main issue is the complete and utter SILENCE from WPN about these allegations. If all of you can't see what types of things this can point to in regard to this company then I don't know what else to say.

The deleting posts thing is not a primary, it's just a symptom of what is/was going on. I only said something about it because someone said no posts were deleted when I knew with certainty that some were. Either they were lying or had no clue.

I questioned Thyme because I remembered his (non-troll) posts being of the deleted variety. And for some reason he was on board with the "why the f are we talking about deleted posts" crowd. I found (and still find) that to be pretty suspicious, especially after learning about his flip-flop on the whole botting thing. Before Joey it all belonged in the riggy thread, but after him it was legit?

In addition to the above list, some players are reporting being refunded by WPN from accounts that were banned due to TOS violations. I'm sure that's a drop in the bucket compared to what has been lost by honest players over the years. But it's the first time anyone has reported being refunded by WPN, so that's progress.

If WPN makes a convincing statement that they have made a permanent commitment to proactively monitoring game integrity, by adding or reassigning staff, or hiring an outside firm, then I think they have done all that can reasonably be expected of them on this issue. Which only makes it more mysterious that they won't communicate with 2+2 or ChicagoJoey.

I didn't receive any refunds...