I think it's fair to say with all of the cheating, botting, etc going on right now with this network 2+2 should not be advertising them. There has been one generic response posted and nothing really done, why should they get players funneled to them from here until something changes?

Suggestion: In order to help your suggestion have legs, link and/or quote specific evidentiary posts that support your case. it is doubtful that they will search the threads on their own.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...poker-1703529/


As far as bots it seems players have been finding lots of accounts that play almost identical stats wise. This was just one player posting these stats from 25nl cash games. It will be interesting to see players merger databases like they have done back in the day to get a huge database on suspected players.

When I saw this thread, my first instinct was to say definitely not at this point, for two reasons:

1) We've seen many botting, collusion, and other cheating problems on almost every site. Some pretty major bot/collusion rings on major advertisers like Stars, that were uncovered by players and weren't immediately dealt with. Players should already know that these problems, in general, are part of the poker landscape now pretty much anywhere they play. Not that this makes it acceptable, nor that it means sites should shrug their shoulders and ignore the issue; just sharing a little context through which I view things. And of course I understand the allegations are that the situation is much more widespread on WPN and not being dealt with appropriately.

2) I'm concerned that a lot of stuff is being thrown at the wall by Joey and others, a number of which are at this point far from proven. I've seen him mention superusing multiple times, but I've seen little in the way of evidence. And then recently an accusation about a bot that at least a couple of people are positive isn't one, and I'm not sure that he really knew much about what results should look like at that game. This isn't meant to besmirch Joey or what he's trying to do, but it seems he's a little scattershot with what he's trying to do right now, and I don't think that is helping anyone get their head around what's going on. I saw someone suggest in one of the threads that it might be better to concentrate efforts on one issue at a time, with the late entry tournament issue being an obvious one to start with. And perhaps it would be better if things were a little more fleshed out before they were posted. But I don't think it's my place to tell anyone how it's best to proceed with the ongoing investigation/revelations, as I'm certainly not an expert on these matters.

But, I've given this some thought and have reached out to a couple of my contacts at WPN to see where things are at with them, and based on what I hear back, we'll decide how to proceed.

Looking forward to posters' feedback in this thread.

Bobo, I think you’re making the right move by looking into the situation further and seeing what WPN says. You have a lot more influence on them than individual users. Am interested to see how they respond and your take on it. 2+2 can help move the needle in the right direction (towards 2 possible outcomes). If I was 2+2 I would pull the plug in the short term but leave the door open to readvertise if appropriate. If you’re going to advertise users should be aware of the current situation & people visiting sub forums other than NVG might not be.

What’s obviously most concerning are the inactions of the site operator and disconnect between what they have said and done. When the CEO’s past statements are considered in relation to the company’s management of obvious problems and CEO’s recent interactions with Joey it raises a huge red flag. They just aren’t self-correcting.

Joeys clearly in a tough position in terms of balancing what info to release publicly or not, what to believe, how to prove, prioritize etc. He has uncovered and brought attention to a trove of valuable, credible information in a way that no one else has. He has mentioned superusing a few times but iirc qualified those statements with indefinite words like potential, mentioned it’s probably something he will not be able to prove. Yes the word “superuser” is especially attention grabbing. Yes his personal interaction with a certain account is obviously impacting that perspective but it seems like a call to awareness & request for others to come forward if they possess related info. That’s reasonable. Might be a good idea to emphasize more concrete problems for now and he’s done that. Maybe more will be said if information exists to merit discussion. Potential unsubstantiated super using hasn’t gained much traction in the threads & doesn’t seem to be what most 2+2ers are most concerned about. Given the severity of the other issues at hand and what we’ve seen from site operators in the past, the possibility that this exists shouldn’t be ignored.

I don’t agree with the strategy of handling one issue at a time. On who’s clock? WPN’s response to the known late reg loophole is much worse than inadequate. The fact that this hasn’t yet been addressed (either by freezing accounts identified ITT or changing the software) makes it seem like they lack the desire or resources to handle this. They certainly should be able to move faster than one person to minimize the immediate risk of players being exposed to cheating. That hasn’t happened. Additionally, all available info & common logic suggests the issues are deeply rooted and widespread.

Regarding another point you brought up, Phil Nagy said himself they will go after bots so aggressively (lol) that there will be collateral damage in the form of legit players being banned because it’s what’s necessary for the good of the community. I think if a few legit players are wrongfully accused of being bots and have to deal with clearing their names I do feel bad for them but at this point it’s in the greater interest of the community to take that risk. It doesn’t seem like anyone’s losing playing privileges due to 2+2 threads atm. Given how this has progressed there is a big difference between Joey publicly name dropping and random 2+2 accounts with less than 5 posts.

Should add, given the situation you bring up good points about the need for mindful posting regarding accusations. How do we communicate concerns as users for two-sided discussion/verification purposes? I don’t have a great answer nor do I think a perfect one exists. Creating an isolated thread to do just that has its own pros and cons. Putting an enormous burden on 1 person to figure it out also has its’ drawbacks.

Thanks for the post Bobo, well thought out and I can definitely agree with how everything is coming out. The problem with proving some of this stuff is that no one can see the hole cards that are mucked except WPN, which makes some of the issues next to impossible to actually prove, despite what many reputable people seem to think.

I know you can't just snap pull advertisers because of allegations and stuff that is occurring across the whole poker landscape, but as you can see in the WPN sub forum, they have shrugged these issues off and generally mock anyone who tries to bring them to light. Proven bots and cheaters have been banned now and in the past, and no one has seen a dime for a refund even once. It seems clear to me they either don't care because they are complicit or don't care because they don't want to spend the money on a network that is 1 US law change away from going out of business.

I'm a long time supporter of the network, but enough is enough. Maybe if they see pressure from 2+2, players, and social media influences (Joey) they will finally do something about the many issues.

at this point, between the several disgusting encounters with customer service, and the clear acceptance of collusion practices, 2+2 is just as guilty as WPN of ripping off players if they continue to advertise. I can't even count how many times cust. service has lied or dropped the conversation when i've had issues, and the same eastern european bots do the same thing everyday.

If they came out and said they allow bots, I would be ok with it, but instead Phil makes a spectacle of the issue making empty promises and then goes back into hiding. hell, the attitude of winning_td in support threads is reason enough to cut the relationship.

There are enough reasons to drop affiliation with ACR already. 2+2 shouldn't shill out to shady sites for ad revenue, and if they are, I guess its on us users to jump ship from what used to be an awesome forum.

To me WPN messed up. There been bot allegations for a long time now and they basically said something the the effect of "Huurrr you can't beat bots?" and laughed. As far as I'm concerned just on general principle you shouldn't wanna be associated with an entity like that.

Hey... it's 2+2's rep on the line so have at it. WPN's has been in murky waters for a while and now it's plainly obvious they don't care and are very negligent when just looking at the late registration thing let alone bots.


I guess go ahead and get your money 2+2....

If you tell me there's bots... I wouldn't care... I'll try to figure out how to beat them. I need somewhere to play so I rather play a site that has a few non human players then to not have a site to play in at all...


You guys are gonna kill the player pool with all these so far unfounded accusations.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

LOL, 15 players... identical stats all around. ...unfounded pffffft

I posted some of this in the other thread and will post it in here.

I know that it is only getting tougher for 2p2 to continue to make money as the years go on. I'm not sure what the deal with WPN is, if it is affiliate, set price per period or a combination of both but I do believe that advertising to the 2p2 audience right now when we've heard nothing from WPN about anything to do with this is pretty ridiculous.

I will personally take up the task to find other companies that want to advertise on 2p2 to replace this revenue if I have to because I do appreciate greatly the impact that 2p2 has had on myself and poker as a whole. I will put in some SNE type grind sessions with Bobo and we will make magic happen.

Aside from the book bonus deal (which is pretty much breakeven for 2+2), we don't have affiliate deals with any poker site, and never have.

While I can appreciate this viewpoint, I think it would be equally ridiculous to yank advertising from a site without even having a proper discussion with them about it. So whatever happens, if anything, is not going to be decided overnight.

Players have been trying to have a proper discussion with them for literally years in their sub-forum. If it isn't something to do with bringing in new players, they aren't interested.

Ya, I've been playing on WPN for about 2 years and there was talk about bots from day 1 that I entered that forum.

Perhaps not immediately in all cases, but certainly faster than WPN's response has been to several accusations of cheating on the site which have occurred for over a year at least.

I know that Doug Polk was refunded money by Stars after he reported cheating. I'm not sure the exact timeframe, but Stars dealt with the cheating in a very laudable fashion.


As you are aware, accusations of cheating have being going on for months by forum members. I know you're aware because you have participated in the WPN when upset users have complained about botting in the games several months ago.

You are right that the accusations of various forms of cheating on WPN should be dealt with separately. Claims of users cheating with bots predate Joey's video by years.


Does the forum have a explicit standard for the promotional business relationships it enters into? Is there a line to be crossed, so to speak?



When Peter Clarke was promoting the Grinder's Manual in the book forum, Mr. Malmuth engaged him with a rigorous examination. That kind of exhaustive discussion was good for all parties involved, in my opinion.


I'm well aware that this is a different issue entirely, but I'd love to see the same type of rigor applied in regard to 2+2's relationship with WPN.


2+2 is the gold standard in the poker world, and I would hate see its reputation tarnished by association with a company which does not enjoy the same sterling reputation, to say the least.

It's been going on since like 2014 in their sub-forum.

I for one say give WPN a break. They do so much for USA players and this how you guys treat them?? Dan answered all your concerns thyme. Party poker had MTT collusion rings as did Stars play good poker this how we police the rooms.

He did? Actually, he blocked me on Skype when trying to discuss things with him. Not only that, multiple confirmed MAers that have been reported in the last week are still playing today. One had a picture posted with him on 2 accounts on the same skin at the same time and is still playing today. Said account regularly was entering the same MTTs with both accounts. WPN hasn't done anything but put out ONE PR statement.

I would love for WPN to get it together, but there isn't a single person I've ever interacted with from the network (and I know most of the higher ups) that has ever displayed even a sliver of professionalism. WPN brought the issues on themselves by ignoring players for YEARS.

We give them money for their services... their inferior services when it comes to security. What does you last sentence even mean? You police poker rooms with good play? waaaaaaaat

I 100% understand the need to have a discussion before pulling the plug & appreciate you hearing our concerns and starting that dialogue. It seems hypocritical to allow WPN to advertise given 2+2’s authoritative stance towards human psychology and shutting out mindset coaches citing community protection. WPN has been grossly negligent and keeping them on this site with ads and their own sub forum is inconsistent with 2+2’s previously stated motives & adjoining actions in running this community.

We’ll see what happens in a few days but keeping up the ads would put another dent in the credibility of the 2+2 brand & products in my eyes as a whole. WPN should have to earn the right to come back considering the state of their games today and all the opportunities they blew to do something about it.

2+2 is such a small part of there player base they dont give a **** about what anyone 2+2 says

Except when you go to the WPN sub forum they have a RB thread where people are regularly making requests for RB on a new account. So this forum is helping them sign up a lot of players. I'm sure that's been slowed down recently as there are 5+ threads in theres with "bots" in the title. They still seem to be signing plenty of new players since the last time I saw the thread.

Just checked and that thread seemed to have stopped being posted in around the same time Joey started making vids.

I think a small part of it was because it was on the weekend BUT just a small part

We got one polished up pr post

Do they even have a security team at WPN? How many hours a week do they work? In my opinion, they don't have anybody dedicated to the task.

The rep is not even here to direct traffic, we are heading down Lock Poker Avenue.