The Politics regs aren't intolerant of right wing views so much as they're intolerant of stupidity and bull****.
The regs who put forward right wing views in an intelligent way don’t get dogpiled on. I’ll point out boboman as a reg who has libertarian views that are at odds with most of the forum. I disagree with him a lot but I’m glad he’s here.
Just in terms of tone, i do see a difference between Mason's posts and Wookie's. I don't think i'm misrepresenting wookie by interpreting his post as saying that ALL republicans are evil in some way.
And I don't think Mason has ever said that all democrats are (fill in the blank)
in some way.
It’s hard to give him the presumption of good faith and that he’s just concerned about a bullying liberal mod driving away would be contributors when another mod making posts like these is not even enough for a demodding.
I’m of course not saying all forums should lower their standards to SMP levels. Just that you should treat a request from Mason for an OFFICIAL investigation of the politics forum the same way cabinet members treat a request from Trump to look into invading Venezuela.
I first ventured in Politics during the ACist days and I wasn't interested in arguments about who was going to build the roads so I stayed away. I came back for the 2016 primaries and was pleased to see the forum was full of relatively like-minded and intelligent people discussing current events and I've been reading and posting there more and more ever since. The forum is now a "current political events" forum rather than a forum in which people debate political science and philosophy, as well named points out:
Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
For the majority of regs, the forum is a place to discuss current political events with mostly like-minded people, to vent frustrations, laugh at political memes, share links, etc, and perhaps the occasional argument or at least a little light sport dunking on conservatives.
When a conservative enters the discussion, the results are similar to what you'd expect if a Yankees fan showed up to a game in Fenway wearing an A-Rod uniform and arguing Eli >>>>>>> Brady. Except it's more like joining a NASA forum and arguing that the earth is flat, and the NASA regs not being sure whether you're trolling and posting in bad faith, or just not that smart, or both.
When this happens, people react very sub-optimally:
Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
But the single most common reaction to someone arguing against commonly held views in the Trump thread, for example, is to complain about people quoting that someone, and to complain that the mods don't ban them sooner. This is more or less the complaint that Louis Cypher made earlier, but it's worth noting that this reaction is not just aimed at conservative posters, it's not purely about ideology.
My only complaint about Wookie is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis Cyphre
If I had to criticize Wookie's politics modding it would be for letting bad posters (typically conservative or right wing) get away with bad posting (bad faith arguments, trolling, conspiracy theories, straight up lying etc.) for far too long before pulling the trigger.
Though instead of just sanctioning the conservative posters who argue in bad faith, he should also punish the regs who engage them.
Mat, if you/Mason want a forum in which people discuss political philosophies and theories, the current 2p2 Politics forum is not that place and you should open a new forum for that. If you want a forum in which conservative posters can discuss current political events, then you should make a new forum for that, or join Chiefs' Planet (the KC Chiefs fan forum whose politics section is overwhelmingly conservative according to 2p2 Chiefs' fans). If you want a forum in which people from across the political spectrum come together to discuss and debate politics, that is unlikely to happen anywhere because there is no common ground between someone who supports Trump and someone who does not. That would end up like the MJ vs LeBron thread in SE, which is probably the single worst thread in the history of the internet.
One conclusion from my wall of text is that, IMO, adding me as a moderator to the main forum doesn't accomplish anything unless I'm supposed to be making dramatic changes to the way the forum is moderated, which would make a lot more people really, really unhappy and thus doesn't sound like a very promising idea :P
Yeah the solution that nobody has tried is to eliminate low content posts. The posters like the one below can only operate in an echo chamber. Chezlaw is pretty far left but he applied the rules fairly from what I noticed. It's just that his rules allowed the unhinged mob to spam endless one-liner attacks that contained no actual arguments
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
Exactly. Bundy juan et al want to be taken seriously as if they were a failson federalist dip**** with elbow patches proposing reasonable "centrist" nonsense. But they're ranting about the shape of the negro skull and the devastation of the lives of prep school *******s at the hands of evil lying women. Try posting something not instantly worthy of ridicule and you'll have a better time of it.
I have posted a few examples of how people like you can only exist in an echo chamber. This delusional hyperbole is where dialogue goes to die. Its great for a far left echo chamber/ community though. In that environment the thread wouldn't be derailed by people forced to call you an idiot or take the time to explain why. The counter argument isn't why women are evil, its why your delusional strawman is just an outlet for you to express your anger and virtue
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo
I believe liberals are tired of the conservative trick of claiming they are being oppressed and can't have conversations because they keep getting shouted down while at the same time they are calling liberals snowflakes and cucks because they protest white supremacists. Liberals have learned from conservatives that attacking is the best defense. And it's much easier to attack a position of "all muslims are bad and shouldn't be allowed to come into this country" than something like "we need to slow immigration down because of overcrowding and poverty in our inner cities" so they make it pretty easy.
I've seen multiple people refer to "liberals" here. What? the overwhelming majority of politics posters are way left of liberal. I think a charitable description would be progressive but they aren't even progressive either. I can believe someone like chezlaw is progressive because he doesn't blatantly exhibit the justice and bitterness mentality that the majority of the mob displays
I just posted a link to the MSM coverage of the Kavanaugh case. Time after time the rant about the fact he's a white man. What does race have to do with this? why is identity politics dragged in to everything? Well, the same can be said for the Kavanaugh thread. Just a couple of endless examples.
Search for White in the thread if you're curious how many posters are doing this
You can see the far left ideology in many areas. Remember Sarah Jeong hired by the NYT? She's made over a hundred openly racist comments directed at white men. She still got hired in an editorial position at one of the biggest news outlets. All these people that just get filled with mouth frothing rage at racism suddenly don't care. Show me the discussion about this on 2p2, I bet it was a collective yawn. Vox, the official media platform of 2p2 supports this ideology.
These people either ignore blatant hateful racism or they deny it. The redefine racism itself to include power dynamics. This is an oppressor oppressed narrative. I wonder where they got that from? Oh right, marxists love that stuff. None of this is liberal, its not even progressive. To call the politics section liberal is absurd
Quote:
Originally Posted by well named
The word bias gets used a lo
It's obviously impossible to hold wookies views and not be biased. On top of that, if you understand political belief, morality, etc you know that people actually filter the world through their bias. It's literally our perception. For example (maybe not a good one) abortion is womens rights vs the unborns rights. Those rights intersect and people with different hierarchy of values end up seeing others as vile immoral people. Many even have the same values in a different order.
You could see the "bias" fueled perhaps by a little hyperbole in a thread about charlottesville. Someone will say something like "hey, they should have just stayed home" and the mob erupts. The problem is people without an activist mindset are just simply thinking let this nonsense pass, you're not required to scream in their face and have a riot. The justice mob sees a need to counterprotest as almost an oblighation, therefore..... YOU'RE A NAZI sympathizer. No wait, maybe you're just a nazi!!! my memory is foggy but I believe something similar actually happened
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregorio
I think Mat is saying the same thing with "that viewpoint from a mod, by itself, is not problematic for me.... but if it means the moderation is biased, that would be a problem."
It is next to impossible to hold wookies views and not be biased. His bias and disdain were obvious before he made the post. I can't believe this is even an area people consider debatable but I guess that's a road that we could go down. Let's start with my temp ban without warning
This also answers to Mats statement that he is just exiling and not infracting posters. I got 50 points for this, whatever that means
Quote:
Dear juan valdez,
You have received an infraction at Two Plus Two Poker Forums.
Reason: Sexism, trolling
-------
This disingenuous trolling isn't challenging of anything, and it isn't welcome here.
-------
This infraction is worth 50 point(s). Reaching a total of 100 points will result in a ban from the forums. Serious infractions may never expire.
Original Post: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...9#post51433479
Quote:
Quote:
That's the entire argument against SJWs in a nutshell.
no its not and the fact you don't get it is actually pretty funny. the science tell us that the language police or the ones attempting to be language police actually have low verbal intelligence. i realize lefties hate science but, thats just because you never agree. its also why you are so susceptible to junk science propagated by womens study groups who generate confirmation bias through flawed methodology
What is sexist about criticizing womens studies and their scientific methodology? I mean you realize they came up with the 77 cent wage gap and attributed the difference to oppression right? It's the patriarchy. It was a poorly formulated project for junior high standards and yet we saw Obama lecturing the nation on the matter as if it were legit. This is just one piece of the scientific nonsense coming out of these departments. Wookie references the patriarchy which is telling to where his head is at.
This also manifested in the James Damore case but the real politics section was shut down as this story came out. The ideology that men and women are the same and differences in outcome is oppression vs actual science.
This just came out. Eric is a math and physics wizard. A progressive. Voted for Bernie. Really worth watching the whole thing but specific to the topic
about this apparently deleted post, I'd think you'd take a little more interest in figuring it out.
Sorry my post wasn't clear. The post I was talking about in OP is working and being referenced throughout the thread now. The deleted post message still exists on one of my links somewhere but it's another post and I didn't bother to look for it. If that's important to you, I can locate the link ITT but it's not really important to me
Last edited by juan valdez; 09-28-2018 at 03:21 PM.
Mat, I know you've sometimes shared some stats about the popularity of the different forums on 2p2. I would be interested in any stats regarding the popularity of the Politics forum prior to 2016 vs now relative to other forums (i.e. in 2015 Politics ranked 10th and now it ranks 7th) to whatever extent you/Mason are comfortable making this info public.
Eric Weinstein is uh... not thought of very highly in math/physics circles. That hurts his feelings but its his own fault for engaging in crackpottery.
It was, and of course. So are we done with the bias accusations?
my point was that a moderator who has strong opinions and likes to voice them is fine with me as long as they don't let that affect their moderation.
wil remains banned because i thought his posting was generally bad for the site and the experience of other forum members. despite my personal feelings.
i also think wookie generally does his best to stay objective when it comes to moderation decisions. if i truly believed otherwise, he would not be a moderator.
Mat, I know you've sometimes shared some stats about the popularity of the different forums on 2p2. I would be interested in any stats regarding the popularity of the Politics forum prior to 2016 vs now relative to other forums (i.e. in 2015 Politics ranked 10th and now it ranks 7th) to whatever extent you/Mason are comfortable making this info public.
i never pulled those up, myself. not sure where to look, but bobo might know.
It is definitely still hilarious that juan dismisses the entire field of social science and then cites YouTube videos as the real truth.
No I support actual science and scientific methods. That's the point.
This highlights more shallow and childish posting. Womens studies is now a field of science? Is my source youtube? Wow, that's really mature and clever. I had thought I posted a youtube video showing an actual genius with a solid understanding of science who is progressive and voted for Bernie Sanders to demonstrate the you don't have to be a deplorable to denounce womens studies.
FYI youtube is a platform. When you read a newspaper, the source isn't ink and paper. It's difficult to get dialogue out of the gutter when dealing with impulsive and childish rebuttals that actually make no sense
I waded in there maybe 5 times and all I saw was deplorables bitching about chez temp-banning them for blatant racism and anti-Semitism.
Well fair enough, I know you didn't bother much with that ****ing zoo.
It would have given some background to juan's endless complaints though. He used to enjoy posting far-right claims about black people's hormone levels affecting their behaviour, and when asked to provide evidence would link to youtubes of Peterson or the like and say things like "I posted actual academic papers some time ago, I can't be bothered to find them".
This is the quality of posting he wants a return to when he weeps on like a leaking Kavanaugh about the far right not getting a fair say here.
Damn Wookie for not allowing eugenics in the main Politics forum. Where does this stifling of ideas end?
First they came for the unrepentant racists and I said nothing... and then everyone was much happier. The End.
It's clear that juan guy literally can't wrap his head around someone actually not buying that stuff. Dude's gotta stop reading that stuff so much. For his own sanity.
Well fair enough, I know you didn't bother much with that ****ing zoo.
It would have given some background to juan's endless complaints though. He used to enjoy posting far-right claims about black people's hormone levels affecting their behaviour, and when asked to provide evidence would link to youtubes of Peterson or the like and say things like "I posted actual academic papers some time ago, I can't be bothered to find them".
This is the quality of posting he wants a return to when he weeps on like a leaking Kavanaugh about the far right not getting a fair say here.
You are one of the most dishonest and least reputable posters. Everyone including leftys like well named observed and concluded that you were trying to rip another poster off through an angle shot. You constantly lie and strawman
This is certainly not the place to get in to details but I have put forward the idea that there is differences in outcomes that aren't explained by the oppression narrative and there is mountains of quality science to back that up. I just covered this in my previous post about sexism. For example, I have repeatedly asked the entire mob to explain the statistical miracle we see in racial disparity in the NBA. Nobody in the entire mob has even tried to answer the question because behaving like a child and hurling strawman insults provides a nice hit of dopamine instead.
This is just another example of the intolerant mob. Why are you here? you have a politics section. Nobody is trying to end or change that.
No - eugenics was debunked and settled a long time ago. It's an incredibly dangerous road to go down as we've seen from actual history. Not all ideas deserve a platform.
Mat, I know you've sometimes shared some stats about the popularity of the different forums on 2p2. I would be interested in any stats regarding the popularity of the Politics forum prior to 2016 vs now relative to other forums (i.e. in 2015 Politics ranked 10th and now it ranks 7th) to whatever extent you/Mason are comfortable making this info public.
As a side note, is there any way to do a poll that is anonymous here?
Because I would be very interested to see what posters views are about their feelings on the politics forum and if they are from the centre or centre right whether they feel comfortable posting there or they don't for fear of the backlash they receive.
Many posters would want this to be anonymous (which I know a lot of other forums just have this as standard) for fear of reprisal and dilution of their own standing in other forums they participate on here which is also a problem where this self-righteous characteristic of this chamber is seeping out to other areas of the site and another reason why something needs to be done.
It's clear that juan guy literally can't wrap his head around someone actually not buying that stuff. Dude's gotta stop reading that stuff so much. For his own sanity.
What exactly are you two strawmanning now?
Imagine that, a thread about moderation and a need for a forum that doesn't allow an unhinged mob to run loose has turned in to strawman accusations that I have some sort of eugenics agenda
As a side note, is there any way to do a poll that is anonymous here?
Because I would be very interested to see what posters views are about their feelings on the politics forum and if they are from the centre or centre right whether they feel comfortable posting there or they don't for fear of the backlash they receive.
Many posters would want this to be anonymous (which I know a lot of other forums just have this as standard) for fear of reprisal and dilution of their own standing in other forums they participate on here which is also a problem where this self-righteous characteristic of this chamber is seeping out to other areas of the site and another reason why something needs to be done.
we've been through this all before. go find the thread where wellnamed made a poll. the interest isn't there. most people don't want to talk much about politics.
and what's now becoming my signature: i don't either.
Juan, man, get a thesaurus. There are other ad hominem attacks you can spew at people who disagree with you other than branding them unhinged far leftists.
