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Old 09-21-2018, 03:18 PM   #1
juan valdez
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Politics moderation

Today

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=1323


This gets brought up and bounced about every so often. That's for good reason though (imo), there's a serious problem with bias and no place on this forum for anybody politically in the center or conservative (basically half of the population in america for example). The posters that don't conform with the far left here are mobbed and abused with a seemingly endless leash. Also the politics mods themselves even join in. On top of that, members of 2+2 who are otherwise in good standing are sanctioned with temp bans, bans, and exile

There are a few different directions this could be taken but the current situation just seems terrible. You could open an additional politics section that didn't tolerate mobs of empty abuse from either political pov, or the mods themselves. I think that's the best route personally. There has been a far left community developed and I don't think that needs to removed or changed necessarily. It probably just needs to be renamed because calling it a politics section is not only misleading, it also sets up 2+2 customers for attacks from an abusive mob

I think 2+2 has something of unique value to it's users and as a business. The general demographic and size of the community make it a place to get intelligent discussion and the community is not so big that you get a chance to form an understanding of the posters themselves. Discussion and debate is probably the most effective way we can determine things like morality, philosophy, and policy. We need to hear what we don't know and we need to have our ideas and beliefs challenged. This is how you learn and form a strong pov. Echo chambers create paper thin arguments and enormous blind spots. I find the people that want to silence other points of view have the weakest arguments and are usually ideologically possessed. On 2p2 the politics section is full of people on the far left that think of themselves as progressive and open but in fact are extremely closed minded. This culture has been cultivated by moderation. It's not coincidence that the moderator quoted above has removed all other POV, almost half of america would fail his purity test. It's more than half but we are so far beyond reasonable here, it's not even a point that needs to be argued

The failing of political moderation in the past has been the allowance of content free posts hurling pure abuse. It only takes a handful of those posters to hijack threads. That's exactly what happened.
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Old 09-21-2018, 04:16 PM   #2
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Re: Politics moderation

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=1325

wow

The guy hasn't even been accused of rape. I don't understand how the site allows this unhinged person to moderate a politics section and ban people he doesn't agree with
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Old 09-21-2018, 06:31 PM   #3
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Re: Politics moderation

My god, you're still whining and crying about the Politics forum? Have some self-respect. This is just pathetic.
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Old 09-21-2018, 07:33 PM   #4
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Re: Politics moderation

It’s a chicken and egg situation at this point, unfortunately. Aside from the obvious, shameless lying in the OP, it is difficult to penetrate the culture as a conservative simply due to the volume of non-conservative posters. New folks come, get overwhelmed by the large number of responses every time they post, and bail. I don’t exactly blame them.

Granted, an unsettlingly large majority come to post blatant racism and get driven out, but I can’t safely say that applies to all the conservative posters who visit.

I’m not sure there’s a fix because if these posters are just looking for a safe space to not have their ideas challenged, then politics isn’t the place for them. If they want to honestly engage then they’ll be so quickly overwhelmed that there’s little chance they’ll come back unless they’re simply trolls who enjoy the attention.
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Old 09-21-2018, 08:25 PM   #5
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Re: Politics moderation

Politics forum has a lot of posters sympathetic to the DSA. That's hardly the far left--more like slightly left of center considering how far right the mainstream of the Democrat party is.
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Old 09-22-2018, 05:03 AM   #6
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Re: Politics moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by juan valdez View Post
there's a serious problem with bias and no place on this forum for anybody politically in the center or conservative (basically half of the population in america for example).
On this site it seems to be that there are less conservative posters than progressives/liberals. That might have something to do with Poker (or gambling in general) not being exactly a conservative thing. Also, we have a lot of non-American posters, which is inherently a shift to the left imo; at least on topics like gun control or health care. E.g. a lot of Europeans who consider themselves to be conservative would probably be considered as left-leaning in the US.

The point is: For some reason conservative posters are a minority here, and minorities just have it harder.
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Old 09-22-2018, 07:49 AM   #7
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Re: Politics moderation

The dye has well and truly set.
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Old 09-22-2018, 07:59 AM   #8
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Re: Politics moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphismus View Post
On this site it seems to be that there are less conservative posters than progressives/liberals. That might have something to do with Poker (or gambling in general) not being exactly a conservative thing . Also, we have a lot of non-American posters, which is inherently a shift to the left imo; at least on topics like gun control or health care. E.g. a lot of Europeans who consider themselves to be conservative would probably be considered as left-leaning in the US.

The point is: For some reason conservative posters are a minority here, and minorities just have it harder.
The game of poker is very much for conservatives. Those either with a lot of disposable cash to play or just because the game embodies many conservative values in the sense of capitalism and exploiting the weak.

I agree that the site has much more progressive/liberal political posters but I think that is more a realisation or a reflection from these players of the acts that they do that they feel less than proud about (i.e. those that exploit the poor or feeble players).
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Old 09-22-2018, 11:27 AM   #9
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Re: Politics moderation

You punks better take your politics forum drama elsewhere right now John Denver named one of his kids Jesse Belle Deutschendorf no filter in Virginia the Goliath frog can weigh up to 3.25 kg that's a big frog roller disco party in 3 hours getting drunk now have fun in front of your computers, dorks!
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Old 09-22-2018, 12:19 PM   #10
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Re: Politics moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
The game of poker is very much for conservatives. Those either with a lot of disposable cash to play or just because the game embodies many conservative values in the sense of capitalism and exploiting the weak.
Mmmh, good point; maybe there's a higher percentage of posters here who want to make a living out of Poker? That's not supposed to be a conservative career choice, right? When you look at the known Poker pros, they don't seem to be very conservative either.
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Old 09-22-2018, 12:28 PM   #11
juan valdez
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Re: Politics moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphismus View Post
On this site it seems to be that there are less conservative posters than progressives/liberals. That might have something to do with Poker (or gambling in general) not being exactly a conservative thing. Also, we have a lot of non-American posters, which is inherently a shift to the left imo; at least on topics like gun control or health care. E.g. a lot of Europeans who consider themselves to be conservative would probably be considered as left-leaning in the US.

The point is: For some reason conservative posters are a minority here, and minorities just have it harder.
I don't think it's really gambling related. I think it's more to do with posting on the internet. I've been on here a long time and joined as a mid stakes cash reg. I'm familiar with that community and none of the politics community is good cash game players. There's probably some sit n go players and live donks.

The political leaning on 2p2 is greatly skewed because of moderation. There were plenty of knowledgeable posters to the right of Bernie in the previous secondary politics section. I believe it was Bundy who just posted itt that was banned for some flimsy reason. There's plenty of cases like that. On top of that it begins to spiral out of control when the moderation creates a situation where mod limits the number of non far left posters and allows/contributes to them being abused. those that haven't been banned will avoid the section or post less.

I posted examples of the mods behavior and attitude yesterday. This was also posted in the same thread on the same day. This isn't some isolated incident, its constant. Its a community for and run by the far left. If anyone posted this way that wasn't on the far left they would be removed almost instantly. They have an endless leash to abuse people and the mods themselves participate

Zero content regs chiming in to call posters a rapist

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=1425
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Old 09-22-2018, 11:24 PM   #12
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Re: Politics moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by juan valdez View Post
Today

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=1323


This gets brought up and bounced about every so often. That's for good reason though (imo), there's a serious problem with bias and no place on this forum for anybody politically in the center or conservative (basically half of the population in america for example). The posters that don't conform with the far left here are mobbed and abused with a seemingly endless leash. Also the politics mods themselves even join in. On top of that, members of 2+2 who are otherwise in good standing are sanctioned with temp bans, bans, and exile

There are a few different directions this could be taken but the current situation just seems terrible. You could open an additional politics section that didn't tolerate mobs of empty abuse from either political pov, or the mods themselves. I think that's the best route personally. There has been a far left community developed and I don't think that needs to removed or changed necessarily. It probably just needs to be renamed because calling it a politics section is not only misleading, it also sets up 2+2 customers for attacks from an abusive mob

I think 2+2 has something of unique value to it's users and as a business. The general demographic and size of the community make it a place to get intelligent discussion and the community is not so big that you get a chance to form an understanding of the posters themselves. Discussion and debate is probably the most effective way we can determine things like morality, philosophy, and policy. We need to hear what we don't know and we need to have our ideas and beliefs challenged. This is how you learn and form a strong pov. Echo chambers create paper thin arguments and enormous blind spots. I find the people that want to silence other points of view have the weakest arguments and are usually ideologically possessed. On 2p2 the politics section is full of people on the far left that think of themselves as progressive and open but in fact are extremely closed minded. This culture has been cultivated by moderation. It's not coincidence that the moderator quoted above has removed all other POV, almost half of america would fail his purity test. It's more than half but we are so far beyond reasonable here, it's not even a point that needs to be argued

The failing of political moderation in the past has been the allowance of content free posts hurling pure abuse. It only takes a handful of those posters to hijack threads. That's exactly what happened.
No
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Old 09-22-2018, 11:26 PM   #13
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Re: Politics moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki View Post
It’s a chicken and egg situation at this point, unfortunately. Aside from the obvious, shameless lying in the OP, it is difficult to penetrate the culture as a conservative simply due to the volume of non-conservative posters. New folks come, get overwhelmed by the large number of responses every time they post, and bail. I don’t exactly blame them.

Granted, an unsettlingly large majority come to post blatant racism and get driven out, but I can’t safely say that applies to all the conservative posters who visit.

I’m not sure there’s a fix because if these posters are just looking for a safe space to not have their ideas challenged, then politics isn’t the place for them. If they want to honestly engage then they’ll be so quickly overwhelmed that there’s little chance they’ll come back unless they’re simply trolls who enjoy the attention.
Can you give a recent example of a conservative poster getting driven out of politics who was't posting crap?
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Old 09-22-2018, 11:49 PM   #14
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Re: Politics moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregorio View Post
Politics forum has a lot of posters sympathetic to the DSA. That's hardly the far left--more like slightly left of center considering how far right the mainstream of the Democrat party is.
You mean far right on the spectrum of the left rather than far right of the centre of politics?
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Old 09-22-2018, 11:57 PM   #15
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Re: Politics moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
Can you give a recent example of a conservative poster getting driven out of politics who was't posting crap?
Can you tell me who are the conservative posters in politics? That would be the better question - there should be less than a handful.
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:45 AM   #16
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Re: Politics moderation

You would think wouldn't you, but in my experience the people supporting conservative positions are posting in bad faith and when they get called on it, if not sooner, start posting poorly and then, after they've derailed threads for far too long, get banned.
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Old 09-23-2018, 02:09 AM   #17
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Re: Politics moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
You would think wouldn't you, but in my experience the people supporting conservative positions are posting in bad faith and when they get called on it, if not sooner, start posting poorly and then, after they've derailed threads for far too long, get banned.
But you're from the extreme left so any posts from the right or even centre right you will perceive them as being made in "bad faith". As I've said before, a bit more tolerance within the politics forum wouldn't go astray.
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Old 09-23-2018, 04:47 AM   #18
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Re: Politics moderation

there is no real point in complaining about the politics forum. if you don't like it there, don't go there.

i don't.
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Old 09-23-2018, 04:58 AM   #19
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Re: Politics moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by juan valdez View Post
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=1325

wow

The guy hasn't even been accused of rape. I don't understand how the site allows this unhinged person to moderate a politics section and ban people he doesn't agree with
there are no bans from this site because of posts in the politics forum. only bans from the politics forum.
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Old 09-23-2018, 05:57 AM   #20
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Re: Politics moderation

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Old 09-23-2018, 07:27 AM   #21
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Re: Politics moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
there is no real point in complaining about the politics forum. if you don't like it there, don't go there.

i don't.
Well that's half the problem, isn't it?
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Old 09-23-2018, 09:01 AM   #22
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Re: Politics moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by bundy5 View Post
But you're from the extreme left so any posts from the right or even centre right you will perceive them as being made in "bad faith". As I've said before, a bit more tolerance within the politics forum wouldn't go astray.
"Bad faith" as in lying and prevaricating. It doesn't matter where on the spectrum they fall, it's still lying and prevaricating. You've said a lot of things before, most of which got you banned from posting in politics, of course you want more tolerance.

By the way, what exactly couldn't you talk about in politics because of a lack of tolerance?
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:10 PM   #23
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Re: Politics moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
there are no bans from this site because of posts in the politics forum. only bans from the politics forum.
I though you accumulated points or something like that with temp bans that lead to a perma. I received a factually false accusation of sexism and a temp ban without warning. I'm not here to audit that, I just thought that's how it works
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
You would think wouldn't you, but in my experience the people supporting conservative positions are posting in bad faith and when they get called on it, if not sooner, start posting poorly and then, after they've derailed threads for far too long, get banned.
The Kavanaugh thread is a shining example of how impossible it is for anyone close to the political center to post in a section that is advertised as "politics". On Friday two posters came in with very reasonable disagreements with the narrative and have posted civilly. The level of intolerance and disdain is remarkable. The amount and level of abuse being thrown at them is just unhinged. Anyone that hasn't been swept up in the hysteria or had some fresh air recently should take a deep breathe and scroll through. There has also been about a dozen posters calling for their ban. To say anyone posting even neutrally about the Kavanaugh story is unwelcome would be a huge understatement. Any post that doesn't conform to the far left perspective is mobbed. The level of intolerance is amazing

People ideologically possessed shouldn't be lecturing others on "bad faith". It's just so ignorant. People on the left and right actually have different values. They often value the same things but in different order. This is where "hot button issues" like gun rights, abortion, borders, free speach etc intersect. One right or value intersects with another. That is where interesting dialogue happens. That's where people think and learn. People actually perceive the world differently. This has been measured psychologically. You vote your temperament. Go google a big 5 personality test. Take one and notice at the end they ask you a few political questions. They have millions of data points. You can map someones political views just by understanding their big 5 personality traits. These traits are heritable btw. Posters immediately calling counter arguments "bad faith" is either a complete ignorance to another valid perspective (that you don't have to agree with) or a shameless intolerance and a call for mods to ban. Calls of "bad faith" are actively used to ban posters who don't conform to the far left ideology
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:38 PM   #24
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Re: Politics moderation

Your moderator of the "politics" forum where reasonable people are "welcome". All the posts highlighted itt are just a snap shot of a single thread over a few days

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=1836

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=1837
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Old 09-23-2018, 01:02 PM   #25
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Re: Politics moderation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
there is no real point in complaining about the politics forum. if you don't like it there, don't go there.

i don't.
I could be wrong but I think Juan was interested in arguing in politics but isn't allowed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by juan valdez View Post
Your moderator of the "politics" forum where reasonable people are "welcome". All the posts highlighted itt are just a snap shot of a single thread over a few days

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=1836

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=1837
I don't blame Mat for not wanting to modify politics. I clearly agree the you should be able to post there if you are unable to do so, but you're not going to have the pleasure to say that Kavanaugh is a cool dude without a few people telling you to die from pancreatic cancer. Politics really ****ed up a few individuals over there.

But yeah, arguing about it because it isn't your cup of tea is ridic. It is what it is and there are other forums.
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