I'm not particularly interested in debating the difference between sex and gender. I presume that you can read up on it on your own if you wish to.

I'm not an expert in the field, so this would not benefit anyone.

This is the opposite of a debate. A panel of experts in the field of mental health are the only ones who get to decide what is and what is not a mental illness.

They have determined that it is not, so it is not. It doesn't matter even the slightest bit what you (a person not on the panel) think or feel about it. I'm not on the panel either, so it doesn't matter even the slightest bit what I think or feel about it.

If you get selected to be on the expert panel to determine what is and what is not a mental disorder, I will be sure to read the conclusions.

I figured that it would be good to give you at least some positive feedback, since it seems that no one else is doing so. You did use the contraction correctly. Apologies for not making the positive feedback more clear.

Gender dysphoria is scheduled as a mental disorder in the DSM 5 (the current fifth edition of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders).

It is, but not in the way that you seem to think - it doesn't pathologize being transgender. To my understanding, while the DSM doesn't contain any guidelines regarding the treatment of gender dysphoria, a vast majority of mental health professionals seem to believe that gender dysphoria itself can be alleviated by "transitioning" in most cases

those who transitioned still commit suicide at the same rate as those who haven't

has that number been put up against people without it?

people arguing just to argue itt. what someone does with their own body, or how they feel in it, or who they are attracted too, or if they feel they made a mistake, or if they didn't, or if they.......... doesn't affect me in any way. so, i ask you as someone who doesn't enter these kind of discussions very often. how does what someone thinks of their body, gender, looks, anything, affect your day to day life? what does it matter? besides trying to get some random account back (doesn't affect me, go for it, reinstate it), trying to make others think the same as you (spoiler: you won't), or just to try to feel knowledgeable about something the doesn't really matter (yay, you're smart). go out and watch how beautiful a sunset is. go to a pet store and play with puppies. smile at a stranger finding joy in life, and realize you could do the same. if you look for something to hate, you will find lots of things you hate. if you look for things to annoy you, you will find lots of things that annoy you. guess what? it works for things you enjoy too. people may say, 'oh, you just bury your head in the sand, and ignore the big issues.' i dont see it that way. i focus on things that make me smile, make me happy, make me feel like it matters. this kind of argument shouldn't do that for anyone. sorry you chose this path, but luckily, tomorrow is a choice too, and the day after, and the day after.....choose better, friends.
tl;dr shut the **** up. haha.

well it's impossible to a/b test for obvious reasons

problem with subjects like this is that funding for studies usually comes from polarized sources of either advocacy groups or conservative organizations so it's really difficult to trust anything out there - you can see in the trans visibility thread i posted about how a myth of 1.7% of all americans are intersex became spread and was never true, just an advocacy group (with good intentions) lumped in a whole lot of genetic issues that nobody in their right mind would ever link to intersex in order to make "intersex related issues" appear larger which could then be simplified to "1.7% of us are intersex" whereas without that false bucketing and looking at the real number, it's like 0.002% of people - but 1.7% has a much better "we're everywhere and hiding in plain sight and you need to be more sympathetic" so that's what they went with

obviously hard to say for certain for that reason, but from what i've seen over the years looking at a pretty wide range is that it's pretty terrible regardless of whether or not transition happens - some studies even argue it those who transitioned commit suicide at a greater rate

but alas sample size and source of funding is always at conflict with genuine science in these matters

i think vast majority of people agree with this

the real third rail of the issue is with children as there are groups which suggest transitions are easier mentally and physically if done at a young age and other who argue that no child is capable of making that decision

It is. What the OP described was not gender dysphoria.

And then we don't hear a peep from him for almost 3 weeks...what an *******.

Sorry about that, wasn't my intent to skip out, but I've had little time for the forums recently and this thread needed a fulsome response IMO.

As I said, I took this to the mod forum for discussion. I mostly wanted to get opinions on the general principle that once someone has their account permanently banned, it typically remains banned with few exceptions. I got mixed reactions both on that principle and the idea of unbanning Rich's main account. The end result being, I'm still feeling fine with the idea that a ban is a ban, but we make exceptions.

Now to address a couple of things Rich has said about me. One is the idea that I don't like him - not sure if he's posted it in this thread, but he's certainly PMed me as much. I've always considered that an odd idea, that I'd dislike someone because of things they post on a forum - I don't know them, how the **** would I decide I don't like them? If I had some personal dislike for Rich, I would've nuked all of his accounts from orbit by now after some of the PMs I've received from him. The second thing would be this:

I'd assume this was some weird hyperbole if not for PMs I've received from you on this topic. But I have no idea how you arrive at such weird ideas when I've never said anything of the sort. I've actually told you multiple times I didn't want to get into the issue with you in the venues you chose. But I'll make an exception here to clarify this for you. I can't imagine a world where it would make sense to be "chemically castrating" young children, but I also don't believe this is happening anywhere. Medical procedures for 16 or 17 year olds? When done with proper consultation with medical and mental health experts, I don't know that I have a problem with it. Kids in the middle getting things like puberty blockers? I'm definitely not knowledgeable enough to offer up an opinion on that, and I doubt that more than a handful of forum posters are either. On all of these things, I'm good with letting properly vetted experts figure this stuff out in conjunction with the kids and their parents. When needed, some government oversight could be in order, but not with crazy overreaching stuff that ties said experts' hands.

I post this not to get into a debate as this isn't the thread for the topic, but to clarify so you can stop with the "I think Bobo actually believes chemically castrating mixed up kids is the right thing to do" nonsense.

It hasn't.

There is precisely one infraction against you for a homophobic post. That doesn't mean you haven't made more such posts (as the infraction says "Continued Transphobia"), just that you have only one infraction labelled as such.

Going further with this - it says nothing about you being transphobic, or a bigot. Does someone making a bigoted post make them a bigot? I have no idea what's in their heart. Maybe they made a mistake. Maybe they're confused, or misguided. Or maybe they're a ****ing nasty bigot. Giving you a single infraction for a transphobic post really isn't saying anything about whether you're a transphobe or not. And the site has labelled you nothing - the site has recorded the infraction I gave you for a transphobic post, and only mods and admins can see that. To take that and suggest the "site is...labelling me as a bigot" is a stretch in many directions. But if that continues to be your belief, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

OK, but...

So I'm a little concerned about this. The idea isn't that you just behave for a bit and then go back to the same old routine. That said, it's not that you need to "fundamentally change", but rein things in. Quite a bit, at times.

So back to this...OK. And I'll do you one better. Rather than a year from now, let's talk next summer, after your somewhat great country's next birthday. As for expectations, I'd say they're pretty simple. Number one would be knocking it off with this kind of thing:

I don't think you need to refrain from any and all criticism of mods. But I also don't think this sort of thing is necessary over a simple move of some posts from one thread to another.

And the other thing would be to knock off the transphobia, as it is viewed on 2+2. I get that you probably don't agree that saying all transgender people is mentally ill is transphobic, but that's the way it's viewed here on 2+2. I'd think you'd be wise just to stay out of topics on the issue, with maybe the exception of those in the Politics forum, but even there you need to follow the forum rules.

I think those are very reasonable requests, especially since this is a better deal than what you've asked for here.

I'd ask that we let the transgender derail go now, this isn't the thread for it. I'd prefer to leave this thread open, but if the derail continues I'll probably just lock it up after giving time for Rick to respond.

Hello history. lol. Mat would say, **** you! and then he would transition. I tried it.

fun read

Disappointing read. tbh I think this thread was more likely to result in "good point, I've banned all of your accounts including the new ones" than "we were wrong here's your old account".

No one has a right to post here, and no one's posts are so incredibly fascinating that they should be allowed to abuse others.

I've never understood the vilification of gentle Canadian Bobo Fett.

he is as gentle as they come. he also plays a mean air hockey.

Is that like air guitar? Does he take slap shots or play the goalie?

I heard that he is "the Enforcer."

It's all good. Life comes first. =)

I don't think you actually dislike me Bobo. But if you really believed what you claim I think you'd have to. I don't like racists. I don't like bigots. Flat out. If you think I'm transphobic why would you like me? No I think you don't really think that, you've just been taught that. And there are social pressures to conform to the mainstream ideology which currently accepts transgenderism. But that's not what you feel about me.



Turn to the darkside Bobo! Become a transphobe with me!

I'm both relieved that you agree chemically castrating children is wrong and sorry to inform you that you are incorrect, it is happening. To very young children (age 9 maybe younger even). Lupron (the drug used to chemically castrate sex offenders) is given to pre pubescent children in order to prevent them from developing secondary sex characteristics and to prevent them from going through puberty. Hormones by the way which might help alleviate the feelings of gender dysphoria are blocked. Also the majority of children who experience gender dysphoria when untreated will simply grow out of it. Yet when you give them puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, and surgeries they aren't giving that opportunity to simply grow out of those feelings.

Now what happens when you give children chemical castration before they reach Tanner Stage 2? They will be unable to ever have an orgasm as an adult and they will be unable to have children. This is according to Marci Bowers, Jazz Jennings' physician and the president of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. So can pre-pubescent children give informed consent to taking drugs which will cause a complete loss of sexual function as an adult? And other problems such as cancer, osteoporosis, incomplete brain development, infertility, etc. arise from taking these puberty blockers. So can children give informed consent to that? No Bobo, they can't. You know that. If some quack physician thinks it's okay they are ideologically motivated. And it's okay for you to have an opinion on the subject and not give the cop out answer of "leave it to the families to decide with the experts." No Bobo, if a doctor wants to harm a kid, we as people have to step in and say that's not right. That's our job as a society. Believe in your own convictions Bobo, don't look to others to tell you what is right and what is wrong, to do otherwise is moral turpitude. Have courage in your convictions whether right or wrong. Do not be like a stalk of grass that blows in the wind this way and that with the sentiment of the times. "Trust thyself; every heart vibrates to that iron string." - Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance.



Bobo what do you think the rate of complications from bottom surgery is for transgender women? I imagine you'd be surprised to find out all the complications that come from chemically castrating a healthy child then creating a deep cavity wound where the penis is and slicing a healthy penis and inverting it into said cavity. That is not a vagina. The rate of complications for all transgender surgeries is extremely high. Surgery on healthy tissue to treat a mental disorder is absolutely medical malpractice. Another problem that arises from chemically castrating little boys is that their penis doesn't grow. Leaving them with a micro penis. And this leaves them with insufficient penile tissue to create a fake vagina successfully, which leads to further complications. Take for example Jazz Jennings who has to constantly dilate her fake vagina because it's a hole that wants to heal up. Her mother is on video saying she has to wake up Jazz and force her to insert a dilator in her vagina or she'll do it to her by force. Sounds like sexual assault to me.

First 15 seconds.


I also want to say that the transgender community has been spreading a vicious lie that puberty blockers don't stop puberty they just pause it and you can get off them and go back to puberty any time. In reality you aren't "pausing" puberty, you are skipping it. Your body doesn't go back and develop normally after being chemically castrated. You miss that development. If you're on them for a year, you miss a year of your natural development and you don't get it back. You can't be on puberty blockers from adolescence to adulthood then suddenly stop and expect to go through puberty as an adult. It doesn't work that way. Another insidious and malingering tactic used by transgender advocates is to say to confused parents, "Would you rather have a living girl or a dead son?" Or vice versa. What a horrible and disingenuous tactic. First of all, post op transgenders have higher rates of suicide compared to transgender people who haven't had any surgeries. So undergoing surgery does nothing to reduce the risk of suicide.

So transphobia to you isn't bigotry? I don't mean to argue semantics here Bobo, this site has in fact labeled me a bigot. That's not really disputable. I'm not litigious, I don't care, I wear the badge of transphobe proudly. "No I will not suck your female penis Sir! That's gay!" Which is fine, I'm just not a transphobe because I won't suck a woman's penis. People actually believe that by the way, I'm not being hyperbolic.

Please don't conflate homophobia with transphobia. I'm neither really but definitely not a homophobe. In fact a lot of transgender ideology is backwards regressive sexist and homophobic. I don't believe in enforcing any kind of gender norms or stereotypes. Different sexes are going to naturally be drawn to different activities but if a boy wants to have a tea party or a girl wants to play with trucks that's fine with me. In fact a lot of the transgender agenda is itself homophobic. Certainly in Iran it is (the second highest per capita transgender nation in the world). Who else knew that? Why are there so many transgender women in Iran you ask? Because being a gay man is punishable by death in that country. Yet oddly they accept that a man can become a woman. I think it's fairly obvious that's a problem, no? Would you consider it to be transphobic to say that I believe a significant portion of Iran's transgender women are actually repressed homosexual men? Is that belief transphobic?

Let's examine for a second the case of Caitlyn Jenner. When asked about his thoughts on gay marriage he was against it saying "I guess I'm just a traditional girl" in that deep voice of his. If that isn't some internalized and repressed homosexuality I don't know what that is.


I've been internally labeled a bigot. Mods who have no idea what I've posted see that I've been infracted for bigotry, for "continued transphobia". I see that label on myself Bobo and I don't like it. I don't care that other users don't see it. I see it Bobo. The mods see it. It's wrong of this site to label me and my views as bigoted and transphobic. I'm not.



I want to point out Bobo what I've written in this post would be criminal if I lived in the Great White North. That's how crazy your country is. It's a crime in Canada to intentionally misgender someone and use the wrong pronouns. My referring to Caitlyn Jenner as "he" several times would be illegal for you to do Bobo. Canadian Bill C-16.

But this is America Jack! I can spew all sorts of hatred, bigotry, transphobia because in America unlike Canada, we have freedom of speech Bobo. Hopefully someday you will be able to have the freedoms we appreciate here in America in your country Bobo. And live in a country as free as mine. Perhaps someday you will overthrow the British monarchy like my ancestors did two hundred and fifty years ago. Down with the King of Canada!!! Yes, King Charles III is the King of Canada which I believe technically makes you a peasant Bobo if you live in a society with kings and queens and aristocracy. Here in America we're all free men and we bow to no one!



I wholeheartedly agree that post of mine was problematic. I apologize for the name calling. I shouldn't be name calling and I shouldn't be mean. That's the standard that I want to be held to on this site and that I think everyone should be held to here. Respek.



What does this site consider transphobic? Where is the line? Saying transgenders are mentally ill? Not willing to date trans members of the gender you're attracted to? Is that transphobic according to this website Bobo? Because according to others online it is. So Bobo, if you or anyone else has a genital preference you too are a transphobe according to many. Welcome to the club! So who decides where that line is?

I was never transphobic to begin with in the first place Bobo, so you telling me to knock it off is disingenuous.

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder as classified by latest version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition. This is not my opinion; this is a medical fact. That statement ("gender dysphoria is a mental disorder") is not transphobic.

Considering how uninformed you are relative to myself Bobo (and I mean that not to be offensive just simply stating a fact) would you still say I'm transphobic? Certainly my transphobia (as you would call it) doesn't come from a place of ignorance at least. I think I've proven that. So the image of stupid redneck backwards bigot doesn't fit me. At least I hope not! I imagine you might have envisioned me wearing overalls with no shirt and a straw hat and chewing on a piece of wheat. Incorrect Sir!

I will continue to speak out against what I consider to be one of the greatest and most insidious evils in today's age. If you consider this to be transphobic and refuse to reinstate my old account or even ban this account, then so be it. My morals will not be set aside for anyone or any reason. I will stand upright and go forward with conviction.

Here in California there is law that now if you misgender your child or don't want to transition the state will come and take your kids and forcibly transition them. I say forcibly because children cannot give informed consent to chemical castration. Thoughts on that Bobo? Should CPS be going into homes and snatching up kids because parents use the wrong pronoun?

Would anyone be ok if I had a son and wanted to turn him into a castrato because he had such a lovely singing voice as a child? Back when such practice was prevalent in Europe, many young boys opted to become castrati. Obviously not of their own volition, they were manipulated and unable to give informed consent to the life altering change of castration. But they opted in as many transgender youth are today. I think this is an interesting thought experiment. Today I hope we can see that castrating young boys for the sake of retaining a soprano singing voice is barbaric. Yet at the time it would have been common place and widely accepted in society. At the height of the craze thousands of boys per year had their genitals mutilated for the sake of art. My morality exists outside of societies contemporary boundaries; my morals exist on a plane of objectivity. Those who ascribe to transgender ideology and the idea that you can change genders will be viewed in the future as equally historically backwards and barbaric as those that believed castrating boys for art was acceptable. Except that in today's day and age with the access to the internet and all the information at our fingertip's such barbarism is less acceptable.

This is a very serious issue Bobo and I don't think you should tailor what's allowable on the site to conform to your own views. There should be objective standards of what's allowable rather than subjective based on whichever mods personal beliefs. I also don't think this site (which is based in America right?) should have to conform to Canadian law either. Nor any other countries laws except the good ole US of A. Can I get some USA chants going? USA! USA! USA!

Whatever the quality of the posts in my thread were before they are going to go up tenfold if and hopefully when you reinstate my account Bobo. I have amazing plans, it would truly be a shame if I was exiled from this site. I'll do my best to not post anything political in NVG, not to derail any threads, and not call anyone names or be mean to anyone, but when the transgender issue comes up I feel I must speak out against what is in my mind a great evil in our times.

Have a good day Bobo.

Were you having a stroke when you typed that? I hope you're okay.



rickroll, I liked your avatar when it was Dragline from Cool Hand Luke. "takin' 'em off here boss!". Excellent movie. Gonna have to give it a rewatch this year. I really connect with the character of Luke. Indomitable spirit.

No, my point is that someone who makes transphobic posts isn't necessarily transphobic, and therefore not necessarily bigoted.

No conflation, just a simple mistake on my part. My apologies; you have zero infractions for homophobia.

I'm sorry to hear that.

Politics belong in the politics forum, and if you stick to that, you should be fine.

And on that note, I'll be deleting all the transgender politics from this thread once again. It seems to me that we've adequately dealt with the issue of your ban, so I'd say at this point this thread has run its course.

You too.

Bobo deleted all of my posts defending myself in this subforum yet still has the post from a mod accusing me of being a bigot. Locking the thread would have been sufficient Bobo. This is clearly bad moderation on your part. It absolutely boggles my mind why he would do that, I can seriously only think I brought up points that were uncomfortable for him to read. And in his state of cognitive dissonance thought it better to delete what made him feel uncomfortable. I genuinely have lost respect for you Bobo, I thought you were better than that. Can my posts be restored?

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/5...-fett-1828016/

Actually, I deleted one post of yours that went on a derail about transgender issues, and also had some defense of what you believe to be accusations of bigotry. I thought I quoted all of said defense, but it's possible I missed some portions. All your prior posts defending yourself are still right where you left them. The other two posts I deleted were ones that came afterwards, when there was a brief derail stemming from your long post. None of them were about bigotry.

Anyway, I've replied to the PM you sent me about this a whole 17 minutes before posting this. I've merged the two threads, and we'll (you and I) discuss what should stay and what should go.

Looking back at Rick's original post, I was going to restore the parts that were directly related to the topic at hand, in case I missed anything important when I quoted and responded. But I realized that I did respond very briefly to Rick's earlier posts about transgender issues, and so I suppose it's only fair he be allowed to respond, even though ATF isn't the place for the topic. I can't be bothered going back and forth on what should or shouldn't remain from that post, so I've restored the entire thing.

The posts after that weren't directly related to that or the topic of this thread (a poster brought up a commonality between OP and I on a specific issue which led to a few posts, and there were a few more about the length of OP's post), so they'll remain deleted. Considering this all wrapped up now.