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Old 04-20-2020, 10:53 AM   #76
Spacecamp
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

This might be a "me only" problem, but it states "Sorry, permission denied" after having changed my password as requested. Additionally, my old password works for the current site, and I had assumed changing it would work on both sides.
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Old 04-20-2020, 11:46 AM   #77
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

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Originally Posted by MinusEV View Post
Meh - I think the tried and tested 2+2 way of replying with a "+1" or "^ This" is far superior.

Clicking a button is so impersonal. It's clearly more heartfelt if you go through the bother of clicking 'quote/reply' and type out your agreement.
You might think so but you would be wrong. Moved 22 community has it and it is a much appreciated feature. Having empty posts full of plus 1s or agree are silly.

Definitely would like to see at least a thumbs up feature.
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Old 04-20-2020, 11:58 AM   #78
Mat Sklansky
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

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Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
The Vanilla site is being shut down again for awhile. When they migrated user information, if you had an account on UBB with a different email address than the one you currently use, it treated them as separate users and there is no way to access the profile with the most current email address.

That issue and some others have to be addressed by Vanilla before there is further discussion regarding design. I do want to thank you for all the feedback so far. There will be a notice posted again when the site is back up.
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Originally Posted by Spacecamp View Post
This might be a "me only" problem, but it states "Sorry, permission denied" after having changed my password as requested. Additionally, my old password works for the current site, and I had assumed changing it would work on both sides.

vanilla has to fix some migration issues before it is accessible again.
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Old 04-20-2020, 01:30 PM   #79
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

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Originally Posted by CharlieDontSurf View Post
having used this site since the early 2000s, I doubt I will regularly return if there isn't a light background/dark text option similar to basically every other major website/communication platform I use on a weekly basis. But this may just be a sign that I've been on this site way too long and need to move on.
This is where I'm at too.
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Old 04-20-2020, 02:12 PM   #80
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

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Originally Posted by TreadLightly View Post
Just curious since I feel enough people like 2+2 how it is currently that crowd funding monthly costs would be no issue as long as it is done with care and transparency.
(Assuming the advertisements don't cover it already somehow)

Seems like a better option than nuking a forum that is somehow still quite popular after existing for 10+ years and forcing a controversial change and having half the userbase (or more) potentially hating the new design and stopping their use of it.
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Originally Posted by chopstick View Post
Can you please explain the reasoning for wanting to go with Vanilla instead of the most recent version of vBulletin?
Hello?
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Old 04-20-2020, 02:59 PM   #81
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

They explained it in the Big Changes thread weeks ago.
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Old 04-20-2020, 04:21 PM   #82
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

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Originally Posted by wiiziwiig View Post
I wouldn't recommend suggesting/requiring a chrome extension for people to be happy with your site, lots of potential malware and I certainly won't be downloading it. You can't please everyone but you should take the recommendations and come up with the best solutions/compromise possible. The recommendations I made are no brainers and easy to implement, like who puts a nav bar on the right side? Quotes being larger than the main comment makes it harder to read etc...

Stuff like color scheme you should either have a light and dark theme or go for one theme that is close to this one since people have already become accustomed to it.
This is absolutely right. Not having a dark theme (or requiring third party extensions) would be a dealbreaker for plenty of people. Seems like an easy thing to fix.
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Old 04-20-2020, 05:53 PM   #83
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

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Originally Posted by Lattimer View Post
They explained it in the Big Changes thread weeks ago.
kind of









Seems like the explanation is it's mostly a money issue and them guessing this forum wont be supported on new host version?
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Old 04-20-2020, 06:32 PM   #84
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

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Originally Posted by kingofcool View Post
This is absolutely right. Not having a dark theme (or requiring third party extensions) would be a dealbreaker for plenty of people. Seems like an easy thing to fix.
It's not hard, nor is it particularly difficult to have a dark and light theme to toggle between. Looking at Vanilla's yt page, you don't even need to know css to change it, it's just a couple button clicks.



Unless 2p2's user base consists of 99% millennial programmers/gamers, a light theme is a given.

Also curious why the site doesn't just automatically work on the phone. It would seem one of the advantages of using something like Vanilla is that it would work on the phone out of the box.
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Old 04-20-2020, 06:41 PM   #85
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

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Originally Posted by wiiziwiig View Post
Also curious why the site doesn't just automatically work on the phone. It would seem one of the advantages of using something like Vanilla is that it would work on the phone out of the box.
I assume because 2p2 adds two custom sidebars--one for ads ad one for the list of forums--so those require extra css to make the forum display properly on smaller screens.

Re the video you posted, I didn't watch the whole thing but is that just showing how admins can set the theme for the forum? I've asked a bunch of times whether it's possible to have more than one theme for users to choose from like we have here, but nobody has ever answered my question.
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Old 04-20-2020, 06:54 PM   #86
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

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Originally Posted by gregorio View Post
I assume because 2p2 adds two custom sidebars--one for ads ad one for the list of forums--so those require extra css to make the forum display properly on smaller screens.

Re the video you posted, I didn't watch the whole thing but is that just showing how admins can set the theme for the forum? I've asked a bunch of times whether it's possible to have more than one theme for users to choose from like we have here, but nobody has ever answered my question.
That makes sense. That shouldn't be too hard to fix if that's the case.

Yea, pretty much, but the video is also kind of old, from 2014. Well, at first I assumed they were given a template from Vanilla and forced to use a particular color scheme to differentiate from other sites using the same template. Why else would they even launch with a dark theme to begin with, let alone not accompany it with a light theme? But after seeing that video I'm not so sure that's the case.
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Old 04-20-2020, 07:21 PM   #87
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregorio View Post
I assume because 2p2 adds two custom sidebars--one for ads ad one for the list of forums--so those require extra css to make the forum display properly on smaller screens.

Re the video you posted, I didn't watch the whole thing but is that just showing how admins can set the theme for the forum? I've asked a bunch of times whether it's possible to have more than one theme for users to choose from like we have here, but nobody has ever answered my question.
We have been told by Vanilla that there are no user theme choices at this time.
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Old 04-20-2020, 07:25 PM   #88
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

I've been using slick theme today. I have been using green day for years and I can tell you that I personally hate the white on dark. I'm not sure how all of this will be resolved, but if we are forced into one theme for everyone, how that one theme turns out will be heavily guided by those who voice a strong preference.
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Old 04-20-2020, 07:31 PM   #89
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman View Post
You might think so but you would be wrong. Moved 22 community has it and it is a much appreciated feature. Having empty posts full of plus 1s or agree are silly.



Definitely would like to see at least a thumbs up feature.
All except for the politics forums.
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Old 04-20-2020, 07:35 PM   #90
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

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Originally Posted by TreadLightly View Post
kind of









Seems like the explanation is it's mostly a money issue and them guessing this forum wont be supported on new host version?
If it is a money issue that from what I have read Vanilla doesn't come cheap and there looks to be better options out there that captures more of a V-bulletin forum experience and capability. This would also synchronize with the compatability issues these forums are facing which is causing the move.
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Old 04-20-2020, 11:24 PM   #91
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

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Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
We were being forced to move from this version of vbulletin and Vanilla was the best solution . I would need others to explain the technicalities. Chuck can give a better answer in the coming days. If you're still interested, remind us later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
We had no real choice about making this change. We'll certainly do what we can to make changes within the new software to accommodate everyone the best we can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
Mason can elaborate if he likes, but this saves us money. As far as other complaints about the design, we're already processing your feedback and the new ui will be changed as needed/ wanted.
The only question is how much will be changed before and after we open up. Any specific requests people have should be posted here. But I know that whatever we do in the next week, there will still be more to improve as we proceed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
my mistake. it is also my understanding that this forum software is doomed and why i say we have no choice. but yes, money was part of that equation for us.
and finally, while we did not seek input from users about where we are moving, we are and will continue to seek input about the user experience on this site from the users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Weinstock View Post
Here's a short version of why we are migrating to Vanilla.
The current VBulletin software is no longer supported. It runs on a platform that is no longer supported. We were faced with moving to *some* other software. The size of our forum presents migration challenges. Vanilla has worked with us to hopefully make the migration go smoothly. Others either wouldn't or couldn't.
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Originally Posted by Chuck Weinstock View Post
No development. No security updates. I am unsure of the current status of Windows 7 with respect to security updates, but if they aren't happening I sure wouldn't run a business using it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Our understanding is that vBulletin 5, with all the customization that we require, will make it difficult for vBulletin to work with us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
You have no understanding of what our current expenses are and there's no way your opinion can have any meaning without that understanding.
For example, we use Rackspace for many things that you're not aware of.
Those are the relevant posts from the Big Changes!! thread wrt reasons for changing forum software.

My guess is that a sales rep from Vanilla was working their way thru a list of the largest vB forums and contacting owners with a scare message about how vB is doomed and Vanilla is a cost effective solution. They successfully scared 2p2 into signing a migration contract, and now TPTB feel they are locked into doing this no matter what and justifying it with the Vanilla promises that it will save them money and that Vanilla can be customized adequately.

My prediction is that TPTB will regret this decision when they eventually realize Vanilla hoodwinked them. But not until after they tally the total cost of this decision later on, incorporating the reduced user base, reduced forum traffic, reduced control of the forum, unexpected costs, etc.

Yes, vB5 would have a higher upfront cost due to customization requirements. That could be easily mitigated via a donation drive or similar.

As Mason reminds us, we don't have access to the numbers, making our opinions worthless. That said, this decision is still coming across as shortsighted and ignoring basic TCO analysis.

That Vanilla sales rep must have been smoking hot.


Spoiler:
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Old 04-21-2020, 01:42 AM   #92
MinusEV
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
We have been told by Vanilla that there are no user theme choices at this time.
I don't understand how any major forum platform could not have several themes to choose from out of the box. This is a basic feature these days.

Not saying there needs to be a ton of options, but one dark and one light theme should be both standard (and trivial) these days.

It's not something where one is a clearly superior choice overall - people who spend most of their day staring at the screen, especially in low light environments, will typically want a dark theme.

People with astigmatism (which is a very common thing) will find it hard to read white on dark, and so will want (need, really) a light theme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
I've been using slick theme today. I have been using green day for years and I can tell you that I personally hate the white on dark. I'm not sure how all of this will be resolved, but if we are forced into one theme for everyone, how that one theme turns out will be heavily guided by those who voice a strong preference.
If it has to be one, even as a die-hard dark theme user, I think you'll have to go with a light theme if only because of the mentioned astigmatism-issue.

Also, I suspect those who want/need a dark theme will be more likely to know/have extensions/tools and/or knowledge to make this happen for themselves.

I use the previously mentioned 'stylus'-extension and while it has some issues, it's usually possible to get most websites looking quite good with dark themes.

All that said... if vanilla can't even do something as basic as themes, I am starting to worry...

Last edited by MinusEV; 04-21-2020 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 04-21-2020, 02:09 AM   #93
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by markksman View Post
You might think so but you would be wrong. Moved 22 community has it and it is a much appreciated feature. Having empty posts full of plus 1s or agree are silly.

Definitely would like to see at least a thumbs up feature.
I am right, and I have proof: Have you ever visited reddit?

That said - if it was a feature that limited the 'thumbs up' to just that post and didn't keep a tally for the user, then I don't really care either way.

The karma-whoring you get once certain users can watch their 'thumbs up'-number go up is not good for any forum. It leads to stealing/reposting and posting pointless "Go X!"-post that they know fans of X will upvote even if it is a completly worthless post in itself.

Having people post not because their content is good or valid but because they know they'll get upvotes is not a good thing.
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Old 04-21-2020, 05:46 AM   #94
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
We have been told by Vanilla that there are no user theme choices at this time.
How is this even possible? If I were you, this really would be a deal breaker for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
I've been using slick theme today. I have been using green day for years and I can tell you that I personally hate the white on dark.
Me too; I even agree with those who prefer slick that it looks better, but I literally can't use it. I get kind of after-images from the bright letters after a while and have to stop reading. I don't know if the slick people have the same problems the other way round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
I'm not sure how all of this will be resolved, but if we are forced into one theme for everyone, how that one theme turns out will be heavily guided by those who voice a strong preference.
You should at least find out how the color scheme can be set with 3rd party tools.
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Old 04-21-2020, 09:04 AM   #95
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
I've been using slick theme today. I have been using green day for years and I can tell you that I personally hate the white on dark. I'm not sure how all of this will be resolved, but if we are forced into one theme for everyone, how that one theme turns out will be heavily guided by those who voice a strong preference.

I use slick here and dark themes where I can on most every site I use regularly. For those sites without dark themes I use Stylus and the 'Nightmode' theme which can be toggled off/on as needed on a site by site basis. I assume that most will want light backgrounds and dark text from what I have read here so those of us wanting slick like dark themes can just use Nightmode on Stylus or custom Stylus themes that 2+2 users create for the new forums.
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Old 04-21-2020, 02:20 PM   #96
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
We have been told by Vanilla that there are no user theme choices at this time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphismus View Post
How is this even possible? If I were you, this really would be a deal breaker for me.
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Old 04-21-2020, 02:53 PM   #97
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by MinusEV View Post
I am right, and I have proof: Have you ever visited reddit?

That said - if it was a feature that limited the 'thumbs up' to just that post and didn't keep a tally for the user, then I don't really care either way.

The karma-whoring you get once certain users can watch their 'thumbs up'-number go up is not good for any forum. It leads to stealing/reposting and posting pointless "Go X!"-post that they know fans of X will upvote even if it is a completly worthless post in itself.

Having people post not because their content is good or valid but because they know they'll get upvotes is not a good thing.
Agree, and there should never be an option for downvotes, because it discourages people from posting unpopular opinions even though they may be right and may be very good for some people to hear.

Something like polls or poll buttons, only in strat threads, specifically for voting on how you would play a poker hand would be okay. But other than that I am vehemently opposed to any kind of voting buttons because the only time it feels good is if you get a lot of upvotes. If you get no upvotes or if you get downvotes you feel like you wasted your time posting. It's a psychological negative reinforcement that makes you not want to bother posting again. (Whereas with no voting buttons you can imagine that at least one person out there may have appreciated your post.)
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Old 04-22-2020, 10:49 AM   #98
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky View Post
i'm glad you asked this. it's uncovered a big problem we'll need vanilla to address. please do make a new acct if you want to play around with posting.
I think I have the same issue. Looking back at my join date it may have been just before I changed ISPs last time, and my email did change. Tried twice to get an email but no luck.
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Old 04-22-2020, 11:10 AM   #99
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

If the hypothesis that you guys were duped into making a change to vanilla, consider this:

You WILL lose a significant portion of your posting members due to a poor transition because Vanilla sucks ass, as you have already experienced.

Setting up a donation drive to cover the switch to maintain VB would be something I'd throw money towards because I like it here, I like the way things are, AND WE JUST GOT OUR FREE GOVERNMENT MONEY. STRIKE WHILE THE IRON IS HOT BOYS
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Old 04-22-2020, 01:47 PM   #100
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Re: It's time to look at the Vanilla Forum

I would donate a reasonable amount to leaving it as is. I would also turn off ******* for your site from now on, lol. LMK.

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