Sure, there's no simple solution. But I think a more productive discourse would be a good start.

If that's how my post came across, that certainly wasn't my intent. It wasn't meant to be some sort of Trump-like "hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides, on many sides" post.

My rant was inspired by the way OP approached the issue, and the way ACEG immediately jumps in with "2+2 doesn't care". Do Zeno's jaw-dropping posts really mean it needs to be approached this way? I don't think so, and that's what I was trying to say - discussion of issues would be much more productive if people didn't jump to the very worst of conclusions from the get-go every time.

I figured it was pretty obvious that there are some disgusting quotes in there; commenting on the way this is being approached isn't mutually exclusive to being appalled by some of those posts, which I am.

Sigh.

Edit to add: Just went back and reread the thread from the beginning, and am seeing my own post in a new light, perhaps the way others would see it, so I'm going to clarify. I take NO issue with OP bringing this issue forward; I'm glad he did. Some appalling posts in there. My issue was simply with the way he and ACEG approached it - I think a discussion about issues like this is always more productive if it's started from a better place than "That might have created an opportunity for someone to accuse 2+2, it's admins and moderators, of being hypocrites of the highest order". But I can see how my post may have come across as a defense of Zeno, and that wasn't my intent at all.

How's Ms OOT going? Is the white ***** with the big tits winning?

It is divisive to divide a person's writing and frame it, and then ask if that person is going to be divided from their position. It's also divisive to call for nuking people with odd derision. It's divisive making a mockery of people's divided identities like religion and nationality. Or is it?That's pretty much the topic of the topic. Divisiveness. Enough to go around.

Discussions with who and about what? I have tried to explain several times in several different ATF threads that the other "side" has no interest in true discussion. They're just spewing bull****. The only person who even pretends to be having an actual discussion just admitted in this thread that he is a disingenuous polemicist troll.

“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”

Sartre, never truer.

This is you and zizak in this thread (and Sarte). In what way have you engaged with the topic or the premises here? I've done it in several ways - discussing how letting people freely speak is better, including for the outcome of reducing racism, discussing how totalitarian busybody instincts are bad, discussing what the practical impact is on 2p2, comparing the current "racism" hysteria with other moral panics. These are valid points. You come in here quoting Sartre as if that ends the debate; it's pure lazy aspersion, and unbecoming of a politics mod, who should be representing good faith and open minded debate if you're modding such a contentious forum. Compare your attitude with well named, for example.

And you're even worse than this. Your modus operandi is to use your mod position to question people who don't follow your philosophy, and then ban them for bad faith when they choose not to engage your bad faith. You've done it with many posters, including ones who run afoul of no rules. There is hardly a more cowardly thing to do.

Hang on a sec while I put a whole bunch of effort into a post refuting the bull**** of an admitted disingenuous troll.

Morphismus,
I'll just quote Mr Wookie in response to that:

I was being polite to you. Of course I believe what I say. I'm not sure why this blow's people's minds; there's nothing in what I say that isn't standard philosophy and practical morality. I realize the SJW movement has lost all touch with reality and nuance and the possibility they're dead wrong, but even so. Get a bit of perspective. You aren't special and your view has plenty of scope for being wrong.

Let's go through the arguments. Zeno should be de-modded because:

- He broke the rules. That is questionable given their spirit, and is also hugely not enforced - most of the politics forum should go if the rules were enforced. Christians take far worse abuse than "a pox on your Imams"

- He has an ugly disposition. This is definitely not true - if anything his posts are a high-minded blowoff of steam of someone who's an idealist and the opposite of a racist.

- He's doing something that will increase racism or marginalize people. This is comical; it's an ultra low traffic forum, and people aren't that sensitive. Do you have any idea what goes on in the world, and especially India/the ME? They don't need your paternalism. How many Indians or Muslim have complained to Mat before this post? I'm going to guess absolutely zero.

- He's making 2p2 look bad. Again, this is comical...a few SJWs will get upset, or someone with a grudge against Zeno (hi OP), but not in any way that will affect 2p2.

Ultimately you want him demodded because he doesn't buy into the chosen norms of your group, and his words are heresy to it. You hate the most important kind of diversity, which is intellectual diversity. Which, I believe, was their point. It was an expression of peaceful rebellion against your totalitarian thought-police bull****. He's the intellectual equivalent of Rosa Parks, and you want to physically remove him from the bus.

Hahahaha, racism doesn't count if you only say it out loud to white people?

What bull**** essentially misrepresents is neither the state of affairs to which it refers nor the beliefs of the speaker concerning that state of affairs. Those are what lies misrepresent, by virtue of being false. Since bull**** need not be false, it differs from lies in its misrepresentational intent. The bull****ter may not deceive us, or even intend to do so, either about the facts or about what he takes the facts to be. What he does necessarily attempt to deceive us about is his enterprise. His only indispensably distinctive characteristic is that in a certain way he misrepresents what he is up to.

-Harry Frankfurt, On Bull****

https://www.stoa.org.uk/topics/bull*...n-bull****.pdf

Quote someone.

.

Seems like a pretty weak basis when looking at the context and how your first few entries come from the drunk lc thread. Zeno has been a stable mod for smp ime and the last thing I think of is racist when reflecting on his posts and the forum as a whole.

I think a few people can relate to irritation when having to deal with a random call center in India and it’s not always a fun interaction if there’s a significant language barrier. Does it mean they should be nuked? No, but I hardly believe Zeno was being serious, just a poor taste for an attempt at humor.

This is a moment to highlight misanthropy isn't an ideology of supremacy. And is expressed in art.

Bobo, you keep referring to me but you didn't respond to this post.

That statement about a bigoted mod looks awfully certain for a mere opinion based on partial information. Is it fair to produce this kind of marketing about individual people using such partial information?

This.

Intellectual diversity or diversity of opinion is like poison to these people. It has to be stamped out at all costs. The irony of it all is, they call everyone else Nazis.

Yeah, big lol @ calling this guy a Nazi and trying to silence a diversity of opinions regarding an ethnic cleansing of South Asia.

spank, so Zeno isn't a bigot, he's just a misanthropist who hates everyone. Sweet. He's German, right? Where's his posts hating on rich white Germans? Where's his posts hating on Christians? I'll be waiting.

2p2 tptb really care about ... something, and thank you for your input. Nothing will be done at this time. Carry on.

Zeno's German? Guess I have to retract the ugly American part and just stick with boorish.

iirc, which I may not. 80% sure he's German.