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Old 02-16-2006, 05:40 PM   #101
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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jman, are you saying AK when it misses the flop is fav over a PP? NO ITS NOT. True the AK has 6 outs but the PP has 2 outs to make trips and 9 outs (pairing any of the flop cards) to make 2 pair. Thats 12 outs against the AKs 6 outs, 12/6=2 so the PP is 2/1 fav but since there are 2 cards to come 2/2=1 its even money. Hence the phrase coinflip for PPs vs AK.
The "coinflip" is a common misconception. First, the "9 outs" you refer to to "pair any of the flop cards" exists for the overcards too, so those can't be addressed here. Its very simple, the better hand in poker is the one with more outs. Clearly, AK has more outs than QQ, therefoer AK is a strong favorte 6 outs versus 2 outs is a 3:1 favorite. Stop overplaying your pocket pairs moran!
jman - did you ever address the fact that, since the flop has 3 cards, they have 18 outs (3*6 outs) to counterfeit the pair, thus giving AK EVEN MORE OUTS!!! not to mention quads on the board!

it's a wonder AK is only a 3:1 favourite
indeed.
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Old 03-04-2006, 03:23 AM   #102
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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wow, who knew there was some many morans on this board.

If you wanna really get good at poker study chapter 4 good and hard.
Carefull! These poker writers aren't idiots. The put filling up on the river as the last chapter knowing that no one reads that far. AFter you read chapter 4 and go all gung ho with your sets the real "pros" will be raking your cahs with their straights and flushes. Read chapter 8!
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Old 03-07-2006, 02:43 AM   #103
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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wow, who knew there was some many morans on this board.

If you wanna really get good at poker study chapter 4 good and hard.
Carefull! These poker writers aren't idiots. The put filling up on the river as the last chapter knowing that no one reads that far. AFter you read chapter 4 and go all gung ho with your sets the real "pros" will be raking your cahs with their straights and flushes. Read chapter 8!
huh?
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Old 07-08-2006, 11:29 AM   #104
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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You say 3:1 fav to improve for overcards -- haven't you ignored the fact that the pocket pair doesn't have to improve to win or is this thread a joke? It seems like all the threads under this topic have some underlying sarcasm to them...
I was about to ask the same thing... I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
If you can't understand the simple math in this thread then you should definitely cry, and go back to first grade. People with less than 50 posts shouldn't be allowed to post, theyr'e always so dumb.
Quoted because Sponger has just made a post in ATF asking for a similar rule. HERE
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Old 07-08-2006, 12:28 PM   #105
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!1!!1

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reading this thread is two minutes of my life i will never get back.
2 minutes? wow
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Old 07-08-2006, 02:36 PM   #106
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

3:1 is the new coinflip
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Old 07-08-2006, 03:19 PM   #107
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

when I was still new to 2+2, I used to think that all the posters were winning players. I have since realized how ignorant I was back then, this thread is a good reminder
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Old 07-08-2006, 03:20 PM   #108
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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3:1 is the new coinflip
rigged
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Old 07-08-2006, 10:37 PM   #109
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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when I was still new to 2+2, I used to think that all the posters were winning players. I have since realized how ignorant I was back then, this thread is a good reminder
Yes, all the people who posted in this thread arguing that I was wrong are clearly losing players. Do you see why?
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Old 07-08-2006, 10:38 PM   #110
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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3:1 is the new coinflip
Thats because a head is considerably heavier than a tail.
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Old 07-08-2006, 10:43 PM   #111
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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3:1 is the new coinflip
rigged
People who think online poker is rigged only do because they're too dense to realize that when their pocket pairs get "cracked," thats not a bad beat, they were in fact 3:1 dogs.
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Old 07-08-2006, 11:03 PM   #112
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

I this thread, jman you are a true innovator
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Old 07-08-2006, 11:05 PM   #113
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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I this thread, jman you are a true poker theorist
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Old 07-08-2006, 11:16 PM   #114
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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I this thread, jman you are a true innovator
Thank you, I try.
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Old 07-09-2006, 12:23 AM   #115
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!1!!1

OH MY GOD!!! This is SO HILARIOUS!!!
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Old 07-09-2006, 12:49 AM   #116
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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jman, are you saying AK when it misses the flop is fav over a PP? NO ITS NOT. True the AK has 6 outs but the PP has 2 outs to make trips and 9 outs (pairing any of the flop cards) to make 2 pair. Thats 12 outs against the AKs 6 outs, 12/6=2 so the PP is 2/1 fav but since there are 2 cards to come 2/2=1 its even money. Hence the phrase coinflip for PPs vs AK.
The "coinflip" is a common misconception. First, the "9 outs" you refer to to "pair any of the flop cards" exists for the overcards too, so those can't be addressed here. Its very simple, the better hand in poker is the one with more outs. Clearly, AK has more outs than QQ, therefoer AK is a strong favorte 6 outs versus 2 outs is a 3:1 favorite. Stop overplaying your pocket pairs moran!
Exactly. How do these morans not understand this simple math. AK BEATS POCKET PAIRS MORANS. Hell, it beats 9 AT THE SAME TIME.

Hand 1: 19.4081 % 19.33% 00.07% { AcKc }
Hand 2: 02.9314 % 02.86% 00.07% { 2d2h }
Hand 3: 03.6356 % 03.56% 00.07% { 3d3h }
Hand 4: 04.7415 % 04.67% 00.07% { 5d5h }
Hand 5: 05.8628 % 05.79% 00.07% { 6d6h }
Hand 6: 07.4459 % 07.37% 00.07% { 7d7h }
Hand 7: 09.3428 % 09.27% 00.07% { 8d8h }
Hand 8: 12.1555 % 12.08% 00.07% { 9d9h }
Hand 9: 15.5869 % 15.51% 00.07% { TdTh }
Hand 10: 18.8896 % 18.82% 00.07% { JdJh }
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Old 07-09-2006, 01:14 PM   #117
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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jman, are you saying AK when it misses the flop is fav over a PP? NO ITS NOT. True the AK has 6 outs but the PP has 2 outs to make trips and 9 outs (pairing any of the flop cards) to make 2 pair. Thats 12 outs against the AKs 6 outs, 12/6=2 so the PP is 2/1 fav but since there are 2 cards to come 2/2=1 its even money. Hence the phrase coinflip for PPs vs AK.
The "coinflip" is a common misconception. First, the "9 outs" you refer to to "pair any of the flop cards" exists for the overcards too, so those can't be addressed here. Its very simple, the better hand in poker is the one with more outs. Clearly, AK has more outs than QQ, therefoer AK is a strong favorte 6 outs versus 2 outs is a 3:1 favorite. Stop overplaying your pocket pairs moran!
Exactly. How do these morans not understand this simple math. AK BEATS POCKET PAIRS MORANS. Hell, it beats 9 AT THE SAME TIME.

Hand 1: 19.4081 % 19.33% 00.07% { AcKc }
Hand 2: 02.9314 % 02.86% 00.07% { 2d2h }
Hand 3: 03.6356 % 03.56% 00.07% { 3d3h }
Hand 4: 04.7415 % 04.67% 00.07% { 5d5h }
Hand 5: 05.8628 % 05.79% 00.07% { 6d6h }
Hand 6: 07.4459 % 07.37% 00.07% { 7d7h }
Hand 7: 09.3428 % 09.27% 00.07% { 8d8h }
Hand 8: 12.1555 % 12.08% 00.07% { 9d9h }
Hand 9: 15.5869 % 15.51% 00.07% { TdTh }
Hand 10: 18.8896 % 18.82% 00.07% { JdJh }
That program seems buggy, as I've demonstrated, overcards should be more like 3:1, I mean I guess I didn't calculate it for there being 9 other people, but it still seems too low of an edge.
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Old 07-09-2006, 10:03 PM   #118
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

jman,

I think you're on to something:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

20,349 games 0.010 secs 2,034,900 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 24.9791 % 24.91% 00.07% { AcAd }
Hand 2: 75.0209 % 74.95% 00.07% { JsTs }
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Old 07-10-2006, 01:32 AM   #119
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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jman,

I think you're on to something:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

20,349 games 0.010 secs 2,034,900 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 24.9791 % 24.91% 00.07% { AcAd }
Hand 2: 75.0209 % 74.95% 00.07% { JsTs }
Thats awesome that they finally fixed the bug in pokerstove, and it now calculates outs properly. I'll have to download it now.
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:21 PM   #120
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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P.S.

Pocket pairs vs. Overcards is a case of realistically vs. Potentially.

Realistically: KK holder has a pair of kings.
Potentially: KK holder has four of a kind, kings.

Realistically: A,K suited holder has high card ace, king kicker.
Potentially: AK suited holder has a royal flush.

Realistically, you win way more hands with a pair of kings than with high card ace, king kicker.
Potentially: OMG AKs IS SUCH grEAT hand morans
I don't think you stated this well, but your point that a straight flush beats 4 of a kind EVERY TIME is an important poker concept that was missing from the OP, and helps to explain why unpaired hands are favored preflop.
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:12 PM   #121
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

Seems to be a lot of mathematically inept here not getting the over cards are favourites concept.

Let me lay it down so simply even an idiot will get it.

AK vs. QQ

Instead of drawing 5 cards I'm going to draw the entire deck and both players choose their best 5 cards.

QQ gets quads

AK gets quad aces if unsuited, and often a royal flush (depending on the queen suits) if suited.

Now I what the "morans" are thinking.

"But we only draw 5 cards!"

Over time, won't we draw them all?

Debate over.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:21 PM   #122
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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Seems to be a lot of mathematically inept here not getting the over cards are favourites concept.

Let me lay it down so simply even an idiot will get it.

AK vs. QQ

Instead of drawing 5 cards I'm going to draw the entire deck and both players choose their best 5 cards.

QQ gets quads

AK gets quad aces if unsuited, and often a royal flush (depending on the queen suits) if suited.

Now I what the "morans" are thinking.

"But we only draw 5 cards!"

Over time, won't we draw them all?

Debate over.
Genius. I must humbly bow to your prowess for explanation of what should have been a simple concept for everyone.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:36 PM   #123
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

Thanks, appreciate the kind words.

I thought Id drive the point home with a testimonial from a real life friend of mine who has learned to apply this knowledge.


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Old 07-28-2006, 05:56 PM   #124
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

wow i don't know how i missed this thread. jman - effing genius!
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Old 07-28-2006, 05:57 PM   #125
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!1!!1

agreed
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