Originally Posted by Mikeal_DH
As far as the math goes I will show you 2 ways of looking at each of the following:
Pocket pair vs overcards standard 88 vs KQ.Since 88 doesnt have to hit flop.Every card that doesnt help KQ to improve and helps 88 to hold up and win is a virtual out for 88.
Since there are 52 cards minus 18 cards dealt out in hand,at 9 hand table,18 from 52 is 34.Since KQ has 6 outs, the 6 outs are subtracted from 34,down to 28 cards.Minus the cards to come on board 5,because with each card that comes on the board,the whole situation changes and thw whole thing gets refigured out as far a chances to win go.So down to 23 cards.And if us the 2 4 rule of outs,u subtract 12 cards for 6 outs instead of just 6 cards for 6 outs.So down to 17.And you subtract the 2 burn cards.So down to 15 cards
So 88 really has 15 virtual outs to hold up and win to KQ's 6 outs.
15>6 6/15 or 6 divided by 15. So according to this,88 beats KQ about 60% of time all in preflop.
Originally Posted by Mikeal_DH
So according to that,KQ only really has 3 outs chance to win against AA.
Now if you take 52 cards subtract 18 dealt out cards at 9 hand table down to 34.Then subtract 5 board cards down to 29.subtract KQ's real 3 outs not 6 because of KQ needs to hit 2 of 6 outs to win,not just 1.down to 26. Subtract 3 more outs using the 2 4 system of outs.Down to 23.Subtract 2 burn cards down to 21
Thus AA has 21 card/outs according to the alternate definition of outs I put forth,that block outs of KQ,that dont help KQ to improve,and that helps AA to hold up and win, vs KQ's 3 outs instead of 6 outs because KQ has to hit 2 outs instead of just 1 out of 6 outs,and so really only has 3 outs.
21 > 3 3/21 3 divided by 21 = 14%(wow the virtual out system came pretty close to poker stove,sklansky,fergusson,Caro,etc etc)
I genuinely feel bad that you're still confused by the maths when it's all fairly simple and has been repeated numerous times on this thread. But I'm not going to try to convince you you're wrong; all I want to do here is point out a mistake you make in your calculation system.
First post: 88 has 15 'virtual outs'. KQ has 6 outs. You say 6/15 for KQ to win. That's wrong.
The event space (i.e. all possible cards to come) numbers 21. So the probability for 88 to win is 15/21, i.e. in 15 out of those 21 possible events, 88 wins. Probability for KQ to win is 6/21 i.e. the other 6 events. So 88 actually wins 71% of the time here, using your system of virtual outs.
Second post: Same issue. Event space of 24. AA to win 21/24 of those, KQ to win 3/24 of those, according to you. So AA wins 87.5% of the time here, again according to your maths when applied correctly.
I really really hope that firstly you agree that I've applied the maths correctly here whereas your way was incorrect. Secondly I hope you take a look at the results your crazy system of virtual outs gets when applied correctly, especially saying that 88 vs KQ is 70-30, and open your mind to some of the basic and fundamental knowledge given for free in this thread.