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Old 11-19-2007, 12:51 AM   #326
dkgojackets
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

nice one day bump btys
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Old 11-19-2007, 01:02 AM   #327
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

there's never a reason for this not to be on the front page
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Old 11-19-2007, 01:09 AM   #328
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

post count +1
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Old 11-19-2007, 01:20 AM   #329
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

Two year anniversary in 10 days.
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Old 11-19-2007, 02:09 AM   #330
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

after reading this and finding out pokerstars has a reload in march my day is way better........
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Old 11-19-2007, 02:22 AM   #331
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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this whole bad beat forum is the only reason internet poker will never "dry up" - just when someone learns to play. they'll take a bad beat and post here with the sarcasm button not pressed and read about the doom switch sign on and off 20 times then go all in with 67 and think they are 3:1
gold, this whole thread is a giant 100 oz bar of overcards gold.
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:55 AM   #332
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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Wow, this has got to be one of things I have read in a while.
QFT
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Old 11-19-2007, 04:09 AM   #333
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

[x] I have responded in this thread.
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Old 11-19-2007, 11:43 AM   #334
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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after reading this and finding out pokerstars has a reload in march my day is way better........
QFT
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Old 11-19-2007, 12:35 PM   #335
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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[x] I have responded in this thread.
[x] me too
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Old 11-19-2007, 02:47 PM   #336
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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Wow, this has got to be one of things I have read in a while.
QFT
inter-level level?
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:45 PM   #337
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

only bad beat with overcards is AA
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Old 11-19-2007, 03:46 PM   #338
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

i love playing AA and losing all my money to a donk
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Old 11-19-2007, 04:09 PM   #339
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

Ironically everyone in this thread who thought they understood the level, were in fact the ones leveled... which is why this thread is so genius.
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Old 11-19-2007, 11:49 PM   #340
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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My first visit on 2+2 forum
Never laugh so much
Are u really not understanding that the pair doesn't have to improve at all to win? So it has 44 cards to win without straight and flush probabilities. Your overcards have only 6 cards to win.
I want to play with u man
Multiply the cards together to see how good they are, then divide by three if it's a pair.

simple.
unpossible, DUCY?
10*K=10K
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Old 11-19-2007, 11:57 PM   #341
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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My first visit on 2+2 forum
Never laugh so much
Are u really not understanding that the pair doesn't have to improve at all to win? So it has 44 cards to win without straight and flush probabilities. Your overcards have only 6 cards to win.
I want to play with u man
Multiply the cards together to see how good they are, then divide by three if it's a pair.

simple.
unpossible, DUCY?
10*K=10K
fight yo?
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:11 PM   #342
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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Preflop, a pocket pair only has 46 outs to win ,overcards have 6! (This is not even taking into account straight and flush draws!) That means overcards are at least a 7:1 dog to improve and win the hand. So stop whining morans.
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:27 PM   #343
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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Preflop, a pocket pair only has 46 outs to win ,overcards have 6! (This is not even taking into account straight and flush draws!) That means overcards are at least a 7:1 dog to improve and win the hand. So stop whining morans.
Lol, Moran.

Let's take a very simple example:

You have J/10, I have QQ. There are 2 cards in the deck that make my hand better (ignoring straights and flushes for the moment). Those two cards are the remaining two queens. Therefore I have 2, read them, TWO outs. There are six cards that improve the J/10 hand. the remaining three jacks and the remaining three tens. Therefor you have six, read it SIX outs to improve. I'd really like to hear your justification for how the remaining 40 some odd cards improve your hand. A flop of seven, deuce, ace does not improve a pair of queens.
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:38 PM   #344
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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Lol, Moran.

Let's take a very simple example:

You have J/10, I have QQ. There are 2 cards in the deck that make my hand better (ignoring straights and flushes for the moment). Those two cards are the remaining two queens. Therefore I have 2, read them, TWO outs. There are six cards that improve the J/10 hand. the remaining three jacks and the remaining three tens. Therefor you have six, read it SIX outs to improve. I'd really like to hear your justification for how the remaining 40 some odd cards improve your hand. A flop of seven, deuce, ace does not improve a pair of queens.
It's always easy to ignore the hidden outs. That's why morans play any AQ and sharks play AQ suited only.
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:50 PM   #345
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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Lol, Moran.

Let's take a very simple example:

You have J/10, I have QQ. There are 2 cards in the deck that make my hand better (ignoring straights and flushes for the moment). Those two cards are the remaining two queens. Therefore I have 2, read them, TWO outs. There are six cards that improve the J/10 hand. the remaining three jacks and the remaining three tens. Therefor you have six, read it SIX outs to improve. I'd really like to hear your justification for how the remaining 40 some odd cards improve your hand. A flop of seven, deuce, ace does not improve a pair of queens.
It's always easy to ignore the hidden outs. That's why morans play AQ suited only and sharks play any AQ.
You really didn't get it, did you?
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Old 11-21-2007, 11:43 PM   #346
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

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This is correct. Of course, he was getting 2:1 on his money, so preflop this was an EV neutral situation. And since you want to get your money in when you have the best of it, not when the pot odds are dead even, that makes this a fold.
But wait, for that whole probability thing, don't you have to subtract some number from 1 to get the actual probability number?

So in your example, 1 - 2:1 would yield -1:0, or in other words any number divided by zero is 1, so mathematically, you were 1:1 to lose that hand, which is pretty close to 100% actually. This is a fold every time, if you care anything at all about Sklansky dollars.

And 4:1 odds makes it even worse. Using the math, that works out to over 175% against you winning with Pocket Aces against any 2 random cards.

Math is hard, but playing Pocket Aces is not. FOLD.
I think I could find a CALL here ...aces are dominated, but implied odds make a call correct?
Well, I've thought about it some more. And like I said, from a strict pot odds point, its EV neutral, you all have a 1:3 shot of winning and you're all getting 3:1 on your money. Assuming you play well postflop and can outplay your opponents if you hit your outs, then yeah, implied odds may make this worth a call.

Hahaha that cant be serious, if you really are 3:1 preflop in an all-in situation, you can only outplay your oppenent by one of these mysterious outs that instantly cracks aces

This thread is fun
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Old 11-22-2007, 12:08 AM   #347
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

Finally someone who has explained the poker the way I've been playing it for years. There are two major points so far that seem to have been neglected.

1. The average winning hand in poker is two pair. If you have aces, you will only ever have one pair or trips if you hit your outs. Therefore even your 2 outs will most likely not even give you a winner. If the board pairs then your opponent also has that pair which means it cancels out and you still just have one pair. You can NEVER make two pair when you've got a pocket pair in your hand...two unpaired cards can always make two pair.

2. It is impossible to overstate the importance of your two unpaired cards being suited. Basic mathematics indicates that you take your number of outs, double it, and multiply it by the number of cards remaing. So if you have 8 outs going to the river you are 16%. However lets take this to preflop thinking.

AA vs KQo. AA has 2 outs with 5 cards to come (5*2*2=20%). KQ has 6 (6*5*2=60%) And 20% of the time you hit your KQ outs the AA will hit their outs and win anyways (20%*60%=12%). 60%-12%=48%. So actually the KQ is a 48-52 underdog to the aces, but basically a coinflip.

Now assume the KQ is suited. There are only 4 suits so you have a 25% chance of making a flush. Take the 48% from above and add 25%. You're now a 73-27% favorite. Suited cards people...suited cards.

And yes this is my first post...frankly because reading through the forums I thought you all sucked at poker until I found this thread. It's good to see someone who has a real grasp on the math and realizes that a pocket pair is a coinflip at best, and completely dominated if your opponent's cards are suited.
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Old 11-28-2007, 06:22 PM   #348
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!

have not laughed like that for a long time.

Thank you so much op
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Old 11-28-2007, 11:51 PM   #349
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!1!!1

jman for mod
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Old 11-29-2007, 12:04 AM   #350
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Re: STOP OVERPLAYING POCKET PAIRS AND WHINING WHEN YOU LOSE WITH THEM!1!!1

i just realized this isnt hsp jman.
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