I recommend OP never play in a card room that uses the Shufflemaster Deckmate. That should solve his concerns. Play online, instead.

i think op should see a psychiatrist

doesnt the dealer collect the board/showdown hands randomly back into the deck?

Johnny, I don't have to look inside. I have all the information right here with pictures & diagrams. The sensors are in the same area as rollers. These machines are much more complicated than most people realize. If you'll send me your email I will forward the info to you. I can assure you that it works exactly as I stated. You need to read the patent info. All the questions you just ask are addressed. There is 26 pages of info & half of it talks about the sensors & microprocessor which I was told they didnt have.

This is direct from the patent

Card reading sensors such as optical sensor to identify suits & ranks of cards; feed means for feeding cards sequentially past the sensor; at various points within apparatus, storing areas in which cards are stored in a desired order or random order; selectively programmable artificial intelligence coupled to the sensors and to said storing area to assemble in said storing areas groups of articles in a desired order.

This includes the sensor having the means to identify indicia on a surface of a card, the desired order may be a specific order of cards to be sorted into its original pack order or specific order.

For example, the specific order may be effected by feeding cards into the card accepting area with a sensor identifying suit & rank, and having a preestablished program to assign cards based upon their suit & rank , into particular distributions, For example, a casino may wish to arrange the cards into pack order at the end of a shift to verify all cards are present. the program can be applied to the cards without the use of a random number generator, but with the microprocessor identifying the required position for that card of particular suit & rank

When sensing equipment is used to detect rank & suit of the cards, the cards can be arranged in any predetermined order according to the invention

(And to answer you question)

the number of dealing operations such as number of hands to be dealt, the number of hands that have been dealt, the number of cards in each hand, the position to which a hand has been dealt, etc.

in absense of verification the shuffler can send a signal to the display to indicate a misdeal, to a central pit computer to notify management of the misdeal,

( the very last page at bottom)

A method of arranging a group of cards into a desired order in a computer controlled automatic card shuffler,

the method of claim, wherein the final order is predetermined

[x] another thing to blame when you go bust

From a technical point it is possible and not too difficult. Factories have "vision" systems that can analyze 1000 parts per minute. Reading a deck of 52 cards quickly would not be an issue and you can record their place in the deck 1..52. Arranging the deck would be a bit more difficult and possibly time consuming but it is all possible. I hope the systems are in place to ensure their is a full deck and maybe we can invent something that can check that of the players as well.

Also, Ameranth wireless which makes the card scanning technolgy on the tables makes a software interface for the deckmate. Are they the ones that make software for the chips the machines use. Not sure about this but I do know they had press realease back in 2005 that announced the relationship & said ameranth would be creating a software interface for deckmate.

i dont believe what u said, because the logic of reading cards etc.. is very expensive technology.

but anywyas.. i have a rigg-ish story about shuffle master.

My pal and i were playing at the Hard Rock where they use the shuffle master machines, and some of the cards were coming out with big creases/dents in them. From what my friend and i noticed all of these cards were face cards. At one point i even read my neighbor's hand by just looking at the crease and remembering that an Ace in the deck had that same crease. We told the dealer, but she got pissed telling us to stfu, nicely, and that all cards had the same crease cuz of the way the machine handles them. Fun times.

OP, how do you answer the question of a player sitting out in the middle of a hand, or staying on 16 when the dealer has a face card. Even if the casino attempted to cold deck the entire deck by hand nothing they could do will effect the players random actions.

Jimbo

Just hoping people that respond to this thread do their homework before making post on assumptions. I started this thread to get serious responses to address a serious question.

The thread has no relevance to anything in practical application so WTF?

Jimbo

Yes, but unlike online, most B&M casinos are subject to REAL regulation. So like slot machines which could be rigged, in highly regulated markets like AC or Nevada you have little to worry about.

Im pretty sure they use deck mate where i play, and if a card is face up in the deck the machine does not even know, hence we have a boxed card situation in middle of deal occasionally.

Still hasn't responded to the question of players leaving for a smoke break etc. and the cutting of the deck.

Yep, how often have you seen a card come out face up? Lots of times.

That alone kills OP's theory.

Putting this in BBV would be wayyy more fun imo

Players leaving for break? I didnt say the maching was set to deal everyhand perfect. If it knows how many players are at the table (some card rooms have an LCD display that list the names of players after card is scanned) then the software program can communicate to the machines microprocessor to deal accordingly. It has this capabilility for sure, it detailed in the patent description, but my point is that it obviously would change if someone got up, It wouldnt have to deal according to program every hand, only part of the time to make a huge difference. Im not even saying all the machines have this sensing equipment, I don't really know for sure, but I do know that some do & they can deal cards in any order desired.

Of course it could be rigged ..... but why go to the trouble ? Poker is not a huge profit center. Although adding a "House" player could change that dynamic..... Team ShuffleMaster ?

Besides,

1. If you are worried about cheating in the shuffle, consider that it would appear easier to slip a cold deck into play if a shufflemaster box is available ... especially if there is a midget under the table. (Think of it like the Adams Family, where Thing would pop a hand out of the box.)

2. There is MUCH greater potential profit in rigging games where the house already is booking the action directly. How much easier would it be to hold out a winning PaiGow hand for the House, when spitting out the packets of player cards from a shufflemaster box ? Recognize a couple of strong hands to hold out for the Bank.... maybe AA, any Two Pair, a set, ..... then deal all the other cards out.

As far as the boxcard up, The machine still deals obviouly, This is addressed in the patent as an example where sometimes 2 cards dont get separated properly, In this case it says the machine wouldn't be able to deal the cards in the exact order whether intended to be random using an RNG program or intended for a predetermined order. There is also a situation mentioned in the patent where a machine can be programmed to send signal to central computer to misdeal if this occurs, some blackjack players think the machines are doing this when count could go positive so cards are reshuffled to give different count & keep house advantage

The point of this thread is to question the technology being used in the machines, Players need to stand up & ask questions as technology advances so does the capability of cheating. If we stand back & not ask questions we will all be playing on electronic poker tables that are already being installed now. Online poker may be the biggest scam in history & now we are allowing the technology to be put in use that could allow casinos to take advantage. Corporations play on the general publics ignorance. I don't know about you guys , but I play very large stakes at times, 100 200 PLO at RIO this year & when Im playing with my money I like to watch the dealer shuffle the cards.

Again they cannot deal cards in any order desired, they only have the capability to shuffle cards by any method they desire. Do you not see the difference?

Jimbo

I've seen this happen, one time a dealer started dealing and noticed a face up card in the deck, forget if he called misdeal or burnt the card.

Jimbo, your wrong, Read the patent info, I even posted a portion of the patent where it says they can sort to pack order or predetermined order. they don't even have to control the whole deck to influence how the cards come out.

I would like to share with you all one of BiloxiPlyer's prior posts, every post in his history is related to the accuracy of the shuffle - both online and off - his claim was that since he is not a winning player online but is a winning player live it must be true.

Personally I think he hasn't seen his live figures converge yet with his online figures, based on this thread I have a sneaking suspicion his live results aren't so good anymore. He claims he was on the June 23rd episode of the WPT this year, who could BiloxiPlyer be?

Since the OP also posted this thread in NVG I am going to merge the thread from the B&M forum, having two threads at the same time started by the same user isn't cool.

Ditto this. The ones with card recognition are the $40,000 PaiGow shufflers. The only sensors in a DeckMate (poker) are optical sensors to recognize a deck has been inserted and count cards. How do I now they're not card recognition? Because a) you can stick the deck in upside down and it will work, and b) you can trigger them with your finger. So unless I have a strange fingerprint pattern that resembles a 3 of clubs, I don't think it's recognizing a card.