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Old 02-16-2019, 09:01 AM   #51
Bob148
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Re: Working on Flop Check Back w/ Turn Balance

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Originally Posted by Abbaddabba View Post
The point of contention here is that having a little bit of everything is not a 'well structured range'. If you raise UTG you don't have to include 2s in your range with low frequency to be able to sometimes 'have it' when the flop comes 22x.
I don't have "a little bit of everything" in my ranges, but I do have available draws to add to my betting range from every preflop position on every flop and turn. You keep harping on this one auxiliary benefit I mentioned(not having too many nor too few river bluffs in range), as though it's the end goal. It's not my point.


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don't disagree that there're some bluffs that will show less of a profit than others, but the others that will show a profit will probably include other draws that have much better equity when called than Q2 no flush draw. And more important conceptually, if you wanted to start raising A2 with the nut draw or KQ with the K of diamonds the argument im making (which is untested from both our perspectives) is that you would only do that if you were in a spot where A6 was such a clear raise that you'd want to do it with 100% frequency.
I'm not sure how you're reaching the bold conclusion.

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There're ways to test this. I'm not capable of doing it but we could make it happen. Would you be willing to bet on whether raising Q5-Q2s (no flush draw) in that spot occurs with any frequency in an optimal framework? And also whether A6 with the nut draw would be less than 100%.
If Q5s-Q2s don't raise occasionally, it doesn't disprove what I'm saying conceptually. It could just mean that I was off in estimating the bottom of the correct raising range(which is defined by the worst draw to raise the turn), which may be 64s, or KdQx for all I know. What would disprove me conceptually would be if you could prove that the raise frequency of (weaker draw here) should be higher than (stronger draw here). That would disprove my main point.
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Old 02-16-2019, 09:32 AM   #52
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Re: Working on Flop Check Back w/ Turn Balance

So there's no confusion on my thought process, this is how it breaks down in my head:

the 987r flop has so many available draws for the blind that checking a lot of bad hands becomes necessary, which in turn tightens my value range. This puts a cap on the number of draws I can bet on the flop, so these draws must also be checked at some frequency to avoid betting range draw saturation. This leads to a checking range that I bring to the turn that looks like this:

J (brings 3 flush) falls on the turn, my opponent bets, and I have this available range to play: (going to work in 5 mins I'll fill this in later), I have value hands to raise on this turn, and thus I can raise some draws, which have a higher probability of being raised as the strength of the draw increases.

Then I just think about how the ranges stack up vs each other on the river, which will define my hand strength and how I should play.
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Old 02-19-2019, 10:14 AM   #53
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Re: Working on Flop Check Back w/ Turn Balance

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the 987 flop action check check

J (brings 3 flush) falls on the turn, my opponent bets, and I have this available range to play: (going to work in 5 mins I'll fill this in later),
all combos included at 100% frequency unless specified:

straights: AdTx(10%), KdTx(25%), AxTd(25%), KxTd(50%), ATo(50%), KTo(75%), T8s(50%), T7s.

flush draws: Ad2x-Ad4x, Ad5x(75%), Ad6x(50%), AdJx(25%), AdQx, AxQd, AxKd, AdKx, Ad7x, Ad8x, KdQx, KdJx(50%), KxQd, QdJx(25%), Ax6d(75%), Ax5d(90%)

no diamond straight draws: AQo, Q2s-Q4s, Q5s(90%), Q6s(75%), Q7s, Q8s, QJo(50%), KQo, A5o(90%), A6o(75%), K5s(90%), K6s(75%), 86s(25%), 76s(50%), 54s.

naked pairs: AJo(50%), KJo(75%), QJo(50%), A8o, A7o, K8s, K7s, 22-44, 55(90%), 66(75%)

two pairs: J8s(50%), J7s(75%)

no pair no draw: A2o-A4o, AKo, K2s-K4s, 43s.

That's the range that I hold when facing the turn bet.
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