Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty
I think I call range is entirely reasonable with mid pairs
short answer yet with a but, long answer no with an if.
Quote:
AK, AKs, maybe AQs, AJs if it's an apparent iso. High card strength is much more important in a pot like this.
first, AK is a clear 4b, there's no solid player that would just call 3 cold here with any AK, especially not suited.
AQs is also a clear 4b, which brings me to the whole long answer of no thing with an if.
sure, it seems reasonable to call hands here. specifically 88-TT as i mentioned in my post. BUT, this assumes that nobody of consequence is thinking about what your call here MEANS. if they are, then the answer possibly changes.
88-TT make logical sense to get in there for sure. opener is laggy and fishy and at higher limits this equals sometimes crazy looseness/aggressiveness preflop but not as crazy postflop (or sometimes it's just plain crazy) and therefore the strong lag player is going to iso3bet this a LOT. like i said, possibly as low as KTo if he or she (i've seen julie do this to roland which shocked me supremely as i always pegged her as a TAG to end all TAGs. but then again, roland was especially nutty that day and she was losing so i doubt it was a regular thing) is feeling their oats.
therefore, lots of hands fare well against that range. even a more narrow range of KJs+, A9s+, 77+, maybe QJs to iso3bet here as the strong laggier player still has 88-TT doing great.
the problem becomes when you 4b w/ those middle pairs, you're definitely facing at least 2 other aggressive (and one good) player, so you're not going to be able to get to showdown for 1-2.5 bets when you like the runout and you didn't flop great (overpair or a set). that sucks balls, AND they'll check to you on the flop often with the intention of raising on QT7twotone so oftentimes they'll have a draw and your 99 is good in this monster pot.
on the other hand, when you call, you have perfect relative position to isolate the laggy strong player (not ideal, but you'd want to on some flops) in a smaller pot exacerbating your opponents' mistakes and making better players possibly behind you fold.
so calling is good on its face.
IF, again, you're playing a constant game against the same people, you're either a) sacrificing optimal play with big aces if you plan on calling those to keep them from knowing what you're doing, or b) telling your opponents your hand. that's a SUPER narrow range to be just calling here. so unless i'm in the blinds, and unless the conditions are perfect, i'm not calling 88-TT here, which means i don't really have a call 3bet range and ceteris parabis, nobody i think really should (Again unless conditions are perfect) b/c it's not worth it. JJ is definitely a 4b here. AK and AQs and even AQo can be easy 4bets (depending on how lagfish and how laggy the first two are).
in HPFAP, mason and dave make the point that 88-99 are folds in these games for many of the reasons i mentioned above (hard to hold your best hand w/ 2+ players other than yourself, plus it's an aggro game). can't fold TT so move that to your 4b range and that's that.
that piece of advice is still valid today i think.
now, none of that changes the fact that K9s only 2 beers in is still a fold here. just wanted to correct your post.