20 game at diamond Lils in the Seattle area

Pretty solid last few months grinding. I have however heard some rumors from several friends in the poker community that there is possible collusion going on. One friend who wont be named even described two of the semi regulars that play there and after paying close attention I noticed some unusual things. Anyway here is a hand that I got tied up with them. (they are bolded)

Hero has JJ UTG+1

UTG limps, HERO raises, MP 3!, CO calls, blinds fold, UTG 4! all call.

FLOP: JQ9

UTG bets, Hero calls, MP raises, CO folds, UTG 3! Hero calls, MP 4! all call

Turn: A

UTG bets, Hero calls, MP raises, UTG 3!, Hero & MP Call

River 2

UTG checks, Hero bets reluctantly, MP raises, UTG 3!, Hero calls and MP calls

At show down I immediately ask to see both hands and wait for one of them to show first. UTG throws his hand in the muck and like deliberately gets them in there so they cant be recovered. MP flips his hand over showing JQoff. I may have over reacted and created a big stir but within 15 minutes both players racked up and left separately. I took a break and went to the bar to think about the hand and talked to one of the other payers who also noticed something strange when they play at the same table together.

Either way,
Thoughts on the hand and the ordeal

looks like collusion.

i would've raised the flop, but if you suspected them of collusion, i can sort of see why you didn't.

If they were colluding, they were spewing preflop, and MP would have 4! the turn and river. So either they weren't, or they did it poorly.

It's a 20/40 game of course they suck at cheating. Collusion for sure.

i thought at most places if you pre-announce that you want to see all hands, that overrides the muck rule. Is that not the case?

Your absolutely right; he was like a ninja getting rid of those cards. By the time the dealer realized what was going on the cards were mixed with the muck.

Kinda sucks that people would cheat players out of their money. Anyone else ever encounter collusion in a game?

I don't ask to see opponents' hands except to enforce show one show all. But even with respect to that minor rule, if anyone tries to shove the hand into the muck to defeat my right to see the hand he or she showed someone else at the table, I call the floor. That's absolutely prohibited and some floormen take it VERY seriously.

If someone did it in a situation where I suspected collusion, I would seriously write everything about the action in the hand down and call the floorman AND the shift supervisor or poker room manager. And if the players attempted to leave I would ask that they not be permitted to cash out until this is sorted out.

This sort of thing is absolutely 100 percent unacceptable. They knew you had them dead to rights and the guy with the crap hand mucked it before you could see. A competent shift supervisor (I know, that might be a contradiction in terms) should bar them.

Well done with playing your hand so passive, too. Nothing like a good massive fail by colluders.

It definitely happens. From what I understand, poker used to have way more colluders and other forms of cheaters, and we probably owe guys like Doyle and Chip Reese some credit for their efforts in trying to keep the games clean back in the 1980s. I think back in that era, cheating was almost considered an acceptable part of the game, maybe worth a slap on the wrist if caught, and it is my understanding that these guys worked to change that perception.

Nowadays, cheating is looked at much more harshly but there are certainly people who will do it if given an opportunity. In a local 4-8 game a couple years ago, a casino was offering a promotion where if you lost with aces cracked, you won $100 but the guy who beat you also got $50. The regs in the game quickly figured out that it was in everyone's best interest (except the casino's and the other players who had contributed to the jackpot fund) to let each other know when someone had aces by kicking each other under the table and then all limping in and checking it down. This may not be cheating against a specific player at the table, but it's still cheating and most of the players had no problem with it.

Once in a while, I have seen a team of players at a low stakes table who appear to be colluding, but as DD said, most are so bad at it, they are not going to win any money. I think about all the people I have met over the years who claim they can win money counting cards at Blackjack. Yet when I used to play Blackjack, I never seemed to meet anyone else who knew perfect basic strategy. If they are not competent enough to do that, of course they will not be able to come up with a successful card counting strategy either.

Cheating/collusion seems to be rare in bigger games, I think because of the following:
1. Bad players aren't going to be effective at it.
2. Good players have too much to lose by being labeled a cheat: many would be risking their livelihood.
3. Good players in higher games are going to be more likely to sense if something is off and catch the cheats. And the cheaters know this.

Having said all that, it's definitely still something to be aware of. I mean a lot of people lost a lot of money on some of the largest online sites because of cheating by people who were well known in the poker community. There are other high profile incidents in big games that come to light once in a while, and probably, there are many cheaters who never get caught.

I think because the games are generally clean these days that many players do get lulled into a sense of security, especially in casino games. Whenever there is money involved, there are going to be shady people trying to get their share of it, so I think it's important to stay vigilant.

In terms of cheating that actually matters, the big one that is common is looking at people's hands. Lots and lots of players don't protect their hands, and only a few people tell them when they can see cards. Similarly, only a few players will report exposed cards to the rest of the table.

Which means most of the time, players are just pocketing that information.

Collusion is much more rare, and effective collusion is rarer still. CrazyLond's point about the blackjack counters is quite valid. A lot of people who cheat aren't good enough to take advantage of their cheating in any effective way. A really dangerous cheater, like a blackjack player who endangers the casino's bottom line, is very rare.

Having said that, I still think cheating should not be tolerated anyway. If the bad cheaters aren't dealt with, a skilled cheater will eventually find an environment where he or she can prosper.

Yes, definitely didn't mean to imply we should tolerate it, even if it's ineffective.

Well played. The dumbasses cheated themselves out of many dollars.

I think it would have been better not to ask to see cards at the end of the hand. The guy who turbo-mucked was supposed to show first anyway. Maybe he would have actually showed his hand until you asked, so then he figured you were on to them.

Regarding the play - expertly played if you knew these guys were going to try to whipsaw you, but way too passive otherwise. Again maybe better if you hadn't let on you were onto them, you could keep playing a strong hand like it were a draw and maybe vice versa. Now you are less likely to get away with it though.

The problem with adjusting to their cheating rather than bringing attention to it is that you're now basically second-level cheating as well. If you know they're cheating while others don't and you adjust your play to exploit them, the innocent players will think you're a giant fish which isn't fair to them.

I'm not saying he shouldn't have done anything about it, just don't think this was the best way. He would have a better idea what was going on if he had actually seen the other guy's hand, which I think would have been more likely to happen without confrontation. Then after he had more evidence he could have brought the problem quietly to the management.

Well, to be fair, you don't know for certain they're cheating. I mean, yeah, this hand looks like it, but do we have a duty to mention to the entire table anytime we suspect someone might be cheating? I'm concerned that if we do that, then we risk upsetting some people who may not actually be colluding, and we're drawing attention to the fact that there may be cheaters in the game, and that's bad for the game, particularly if we're wrong and they are not colluding/cheating.

Further, really what we're doing when we suspect others of cheating is adjusting to their play. Innocent players may think we're a fish if we start limping in AA because maybe the guy to our left raises 75% of the time if it isn't raised before him, but folds otherwise, or whatever. Our adjustments to other people's play styles aren't inherently unfair; the other players in the game see the exact same action we do. Unless we somehow have more information than they do regarding someone possibly cheating, I don't see why we can't continue to adjust and exploit until we know something 100%.

Just as a data point: the few years I put thousands of hours live I don't remember anyone ever 3 betting the river 3 ways in a huge pot and then mucking first without showing at any game (20,30,40)

I play in the LA area so my games were full of crazy action players.

next time, BEFORE you call, tell the dealer to protect the muck and that you'd like to see all hands involved. then call and there's nothing he can do.

similarly, instead of announcing you'd like to see all hands, tell the dealer to protect the muck.

given what happened, i'd have 100% called the floor and said "i suspected some out of line play in this hand and wanted to see both hands to verify. player 1 physically mucked his hand - that the dealer wasn't protecting but should have been - and prevented me from verifying what i suspected. what can you do about this?"

No. Don't harp on the dealer or criticize the way the dealer does his or her job. Dealing is an extremely tough job and dealers suffer way too much from players berating them.

If you ever DO have a legitimate problem with a dealer, raise it quietly with casino staff. Never, ever, ever, say anything nasty about a dealer in front of other players, no matter how bad the dealer is. Not only does it encourage dealer abuse and piling on, but it can also backfire and cause the casino to back its dealer.

But the rest of your statement is good. The villain here isn't the dealer-- it's tougher to protect the muck when doing 20 other things than you might think-- but the player who knew that IWTSTH was invoked and turbo-mucked the hand.

A. 99.9% whipsawing.
B. Played it great.
At showdown you should have let them turn their hand over rather than smack them in the face with the jig is up comment.


C. I don't think telling other players is right play, definite mention to shift or managaer not just regular floor. You run the risk of being wrong, possibly, and then causing a bunch of static you don't need. Their is also a small chance they get mad and want to get even later and you don't need that.

Jmo, anyone whk sees that and doesn't realize how messed up it is won't understand anyway.

disagree.

yes, ofc dealing is a tough job. and yes, ofc dealers take WAY too much sh*t from players, but in no way does that justify them not doing their job. at showdown, the dealer's hand must be on the muck protecting it.

if you have to ask for this (which obviously you do at the op's casino), then the dealers legit aren't doing their job.

if that is too tough for them or if you think that's too much to ask, then the dealers simply aren't up to par.

Want to point out that by demanding to see both hands, you're making them live in many places. It could be that you know you have the effective nuts, and you want to out their cheating. As a player in the hand if some guy is quietly mucking T8o, his hand is now live and will win the pot. I think that's what GM is saying, you're now keeping their hands live because you asked. Know the rules where you play. It should be that someone not in the hand can't make a hand live by IWTSTH, but you will.

It looks like you're getting whipsawed. However, the counter claim is that given that you raised exactly once in the hand and that he thought his AK or whatever was good until MP called.
If these guys have a history, calling the floor and/or shift manager looks like an ever better idea.
Yes. It is freaking hard to prove. Sometimes even when clear, the floor may decline to get involved. I'd still talk to a manager, because that's what you can do. Also, the integrity of the game matters to you even though things worked out here.

Even a "not up to par" dealer is entitled to absolute respect at the table. Even the players who have justifications for berating dealers still make things worse by doing it in front of the table, in all sorts of ways. As I said, if the dealer really does screw up, deal with it privately, away from the table. It is both more effective and better for the game.

Berating a dealer is actually a serious tilt / lack of self-control issue. Just about every player I have ever seen do it, even when the dealer has made a mistake, has a temper problem and serious leaks in his or her game.

you quoted my post and then posted this...

that doesn't deal in any way shape or form with my point that a dealer, in order to do his or her job, must protect the muck at showdown. how does anything above even remotely address that?

if you have to ASK the dealer to cover the muck b/c you know you're about to ask for hands to be revealed, then he or she is not doing his or her job. period.