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Old 04-16-2017, 01:52 AM   #1
DonkeyOnTilt
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Under pair turns a draw

7 handed 20/40.

Utg calls. Utg+1 raises. He is an older gentleman who is very passive and doesn't raise much pre. Utg +2 calls. 1 fold. I'm on the button with 88. This is the first time Ive seen Utg raise preflop in the hour he's been at the table and it froze me into just calling.

Flop comes 973 rainbow. Check, UTG+1 bets, fold and I raise. Utg takes 2 to the face and utg+1 3 bets. I call and we see a turn 10 putting 2 clubs on board. It now checks to me. What next?


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Old 04-16-2017, 02:19 AM   #2
monikrazy
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

Check
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:14 PM   #3
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt View Post
7 handed 20/40.

Utg calls. Utg+1 raises. He is an older gentleman who is very passive and doesn't raise much pre. Utg +2 calls. 1 fold. I'm on the button with 88. This is the first time Ive seen Utg raise preflop in the hour he's been at the table and it froze me into just calling.

Flop comes 973 rainbow. Check, UTG+1 bets, fold and I raise. Utg takes 2 to the face and utg+1 3 bets. I call and we see a turn 10 putting 2 clubs on board. It now checks to me. What next?


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I think you are often in third place here and rarely in first so you should check. The only hands that a passive player should play as aggressively as UTG+1 on the flop would be 77/99/TT/JJ/QQ/KK/AA or maybe A9s/K9s if those are in his preflop range. Given this range, his turn check is a bit strange but not entirely inconsistent with a very passive player who is scared of J8/86/T9 even though those hands aren't all that likely. Overly passive players often are not great hand readers.

UTG will also have you beat fairly often. You didn't give us too much info on him, but his play could be consistent with 33/77/9x/JTo/T8s/86s/J8s or something worse like Q9s/A3s/76s/65s.
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Old 04-16-2017, 01:19 PM   #4
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

Ok perhaps I should start the question where it gets tough because I did check turn thinking much the same as posted above. Also, no reads on first guy, never seen him and this is his 3rd hand I think.

River comes rainbow 3 pairing the board. It goes check, bet and now what do I do?

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Old 04-16-2017, 01:57 PM   #5
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

If you didn't like 88 v utg+1 range pre, why do you like it enough to raise the flop? Of all the flops you'll continue with I don't think your equity has improved much. I don't hate a flop call.

As played, utg+1 is taking a very strange line, but I'd be less worried about a passive predictable player x/r'ng and more focused on what types of hands utg is willing to flat 2 with. If it's any pair, set, or draw, and even if utg+1 has an over pair, I don't think betting can be too costly unless you're very sure you're getting x/r'd by better hands.
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Old 04-16-2017, 09:53 PM   #6
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

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If you didn't like 88 v utg+1 range pre, why do you like it enough to raise the flop? Of all the flops you'll continue with I don't think your equity has improved much. I don't hate a flop call.

As played, utg+1 is taking a very strange line, but I'd be less worried about a passive predictable player x/r'ng and more focused on what types of hands utg is willing to flat 2 with. If it's any pair, set, or draw, and even if utg+1 has an over pair, I don't think betting can be too costly unless you're very sure you're getting x/r'd by better hands.
It's not that I didn't like my 88. I feel I made a mistake by not raising pre-flop and perhaps some of that made it's way into my flop raise. I feel like I really butchered this hand starting there and then by focusing too much on the initial raiser. Also when I described the initial raiser as very tight pre-flop I didn't mention that he plays quite poorly post flop. All that being said, as played is calling this river ever profitable?
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Old 04-17-2017, 01:37 AM   #7
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

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All that being said, as played is calling this river ever profitable?
The problem is you're ahead of what your range looks like (are you ever checking the turn with a pair of nines or better?). utg+1 played his hand so goofy I'd probably call getting 9:1 expecting to lose, but hoping to see a badly played AK, AQ, AJ once in a while.

Frankie Fuzz makes some good points, but I'd still rather bet the turn with what will sometimes be the best hand and/or figures to have reasonable equity when it isn't, rather than putting myself in this spot on the river.
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Old 04-17-2017, 02:31 AM   #8
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

easier to bet the turn than raise the flop imo.
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Old 04-17-2017, 10:26 AM   #9
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

I'd fold preflop
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Old 04-17-2017, 10:48 AM   #10
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

I'd fold river as played, I don't think we ever have fold equity when turn is checked, villain is most likely in call down mode with an overpair - a set is not impossible - after hero checks the turn and river does not improve hero's range at all going for value is normal
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Old 04-22-2017, 05:55 AM   #11
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Under pair turns a draw

Agree that there is 0% fold equity on the turn.

Once you've been 3-bet on the flop by this particular player, you should only be hoping to improve your hand or fold. This player isn't 3-betting A-K here ever, and villain 2 is calling with 10-10 or J-J or some sh*t. You beat nothing. Don't "bet the turn to avoid a tough spot on the river." That is -EV. The river isn't actually that tough, IMO: it's one of the few times we can fold and sleep well, even knowing that the pot was laying a zillion:1. (Notice that if you check the turn and fold the river, you've put exactly 0 bb's into this pot with your marginal hand.)
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Old 04-22-2017, 03:07 PM   #12
6MaxLHE
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

Don't raise flop. Check turn. Fold river.
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Old 04-22-2017, 03:52 PM   #13
DonkeyOnTilt
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

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Don't raise flop. Check turn. Fold river.
I agree the flop raise was bad. If I had called as I should've, do I call river if it checks through on turn?
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Old 05-07-2017, 06:59 AM   #14
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

Fold pre-flop.
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:24 PM   #15
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

Folding preflop is pretty tight but Im ok with it given yr description of your opponent. As played no reason to bet turn clearly one if not both opponents are checking to cl you down. River I lean towards just folding you are looking at QQ and better most often.
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Old 05-07-2017, 05:25 PM   #16
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

folding pre is some next level nittery. A limp, a raise and a cold caller and want to fold a pair on the button? I'm calling pockets twos here and feel fine about it. Wouldnt have raised the flop though. Id probably call the river and expect to lose a lot. Its probably a fold though
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Old 05-07-2017, 08:44 PM   #17
DonkeyOnTilt
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

Folding pre is out of the question IMO. This guy is an old nit but he is bad. I want to play versus him in position. I'll spoil the results since this thread is sorta dead.

Spoiler:
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:03 AM   #18
leavesofliberty
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

Meh, all three options have some merit, but I go with

Fold > 3 bet > call

Take control of the hand if you're going to play it, imho. Nit is never going to give you several bets on the turn with the second best hand unless it's an absolute cooler. You are not getting odds to draw to the set, and the description leaves me to believe the nit's range has 88 beat.
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:06 PM   #19
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

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Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt View Post
Ok perhaps I should start the question where it gets tough because I did check turn thinking much the same as posted above. Also, no reads on first guy, never seen him and this is his 3rd hand I think.

River comes rainbow 3 pairing the board. It goes check, bet and now what do I do?

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fold, from your description of UTG+1, he has an overpair to board, checked turn because he figured someone was calling open ended and was afraid of 10..bet river which changed nothing. From your description doubt guy played 99, or ak aq, this way. IMO.
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:09 PM   #20
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

He is an older gentleman who is very passive and doesn't raise much pre.

Just read spoiler(Ac7c)....ummmm ur read was not very good lol or maybe he just went crazy this hand?
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:23 PM   #21
DonkeyOnTilt
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

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He is an older gentleman who is very passive and doesn't raise much pre.

Just read spoiler(Ac7c)....ummmm ur read was not very good lol or maybe he just went crazy this hand?
My read wasn't super off. What I neglected to add was he was losing a lot at the time. I suspect he loosened up pre and 3 bet the flop as a form of tilt and since that session have seen it happen a few other times. I have adjusted for future hands versus this guy.
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:38 PM   #22
dead.money
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

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Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt View Post
My read wasn't super off. What I neglected to add was he was losing a lot at the time. I suspect he loosened up pre and 3 bet the flop as a form of tilt and since that session have seen it happen a few other times. I have adjusted for future hands versus this guy.
Ahhhh Tilt! that makes sense.
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:27 AM   #23
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

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Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt View Post
My read wasn't super off. What I neglected to add was he was losing a lot at the time. I suspect he loosened up pre and 3 bet the flop as a form of tilt and since that session have seen it happen a few other times. I have adjusted for future hands versus this guy.
FWIW I don't think your read matches anyone that regularly plays the 20.
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Old 05-09-2017, 01:13 PM   #24
DonkeyOnTilt
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

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FWIW I don't think your read matches anyone that regularly plays the 20.
I never said he was a regular. He plays maybe once or twice a month sporadically. Old white haired Al.
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Old 05-09-2017, 01:53 PM   #25
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Re: Under pair turns a draw

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Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt View Post
I never said he was a regular. He plays maybe once or twice a month sporadically. Old white haired Al.
Al is no nit, don't let the white hair fool you and definitely 3-bet him with 88.
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