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Old 07-21-2018, 09:55 PM   #1
dadjoey
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Two Hands: Top Two and Air

Hand 1:

80/160 - Full ring. Villain opens UTG. I three bet AQo in MP. BB calls. Villain back caps. We both call. Flop A Q low cc. BB checks to Villain who bets. We both call. I am delaying a raise to the turn on in this spot.

Turn comes a non broadway third club. Villain bets, I raise, BB tank calls two. Villain calls.

River is a non scary card. Checks to me. B/C? B/F? Check back?


Hand 2:

40/80 - 4 handed. I am in the big blind. UTG raises, button 3 bets, I cap 88s. Call call. Flop comes K 9 x two suits. I bet, call, call. Turn is an off suit queen. Do we barrel turn river in this spot?
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:16 PM   #2
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

Hand 1 b/c or b/3!/c depending on the player.

Hand 2 I probably just flat from BB, since UTG should never be folding for two more. As played, I don't hate your flop bet, but the Q on the turn is a pretty bad card given reasonable ranges. I might x/c if utg bet and button folded depending on how utg plays, but would x/f if utg bet and button called, or even if just button bet because utg could be x/r'ng and you really shouldn't be beating much, not to mention your two outs won't be good some of the times when they hit.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:26 PM   #3
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

hand 1: i def wouldn't b/f or c/
hand 2: check turn
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Old 07-22-2018, 02:27 AM   #4
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

Habe 2 seems like as easy check fold.

Habd 1 is always be raising the flop. What are you raising here? Ak? AJ? As played, I’d bet call
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Old 07-22-2018, 04:40 AM   #5
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadjoey View Post
Hand 2:

40/80 - 4 handed. I am in the big blind. UTG raises, button 3 bets, I cap 88s. Call call. Flop comes K 9 x two suits. I bet, call, call. Turn is an off suit queen. Do we barrel turn river in this spot?
Hi Dad:

I'm just going to address Hand 2. Before the flop you should just call and not cap with the pair of eights from the big blind. In The Intelligent Poker Player by Philip Newall he gives a good explanation as to why you should just call out of the big blind (but you should probably four bet out of the small blind).

Given that you did make it four bets preflop, on the turn there's slightly less than 8 big bets in the pot, and there's a 5 percent chance you'll catch an eight on the river. If you check and an opponents bets (and there's no raise) you'll be getting 9- or 10-to-1 to call. So you need to have the best hand at the river slightly less than 10 percent of the time. If you think an 8 will be good if you catch it and your opponent won't bet again if he can't beat a pair of eights on the river which now only needs to happen about 5 percent of the time, then it seems to me that a check-call would be a better play than check-fold.

As for a lead bet on the turn, again I think both your opponents will fold often enough coupled with your chance of catching a river eight to give this play positive expectation. In fact, I think it's a little better than the check call above since there are a few hands that an opponent should fold which can draw out on your eights (assuming your eights are the best hand). However, if raised on the turn, it's probably best to give it up since your chances of winning with a set of eights has gone down.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 07-22-2018, 09:45 AM   #6
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

I'd definitely raise the flop in hand 1. Get value while you can and dont let the 3rd player catch a gut shot.
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Old 07-22-2018, 04:01 PM   #7
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

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Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi Dad:

I'm just going to address Hand 2. Before the flop you should just call and not cap with the pair of eights from the big blind. In The Intelligent Poker Player by Philip Newall he gives a good explanation as to why you should just call out of the big blind (but you should probably four bet out of the small blind).

Given that you did make it four bets preflop, on the turn there's slightly less than 8 big bets in the pot, and there's a 5 percent chance you'll catch an eight on the river. If you check and an opponents bets (and there's no raise) you'll be getting 9- or 10-to-1 to call. So you need to have the best hand at the river slightly less than 10 percent of the time. If you think an 8 will be good if you catch it and your opponent won't bet again if he can't beat a pair of eights on the river which now only needs to happen about 5 percent of the time, then it seems to me that a check-call would be a better play than check-fold.

As for a lead bet on the turn, again I think both your opponents will fold often enough coupled with your chance of catching a river eight to give this play positive expectation. In fact, I think it's a little better than the check call above since there are a few hands that an opponent should fold which can draw out on your eights (assuming your eights are the best hand). However, if raised on the turn, it's probably best to give it up since your chances of winning with a set of eights has gone down.

Best wishes,
Mason
I think the "never cap out of the BB" strategy makes much more sense if you are dealing with wide ranges than it does with narrow ones. With a typical UTG raiser, you should be dealing with a pretty narrow range, and if the button is a reasonable player, she should only be 3-betting with a very narrow range that is ahead of the UTG's range. In that situation, our call is basically the same as a cap-- there shouldn't be very many hands that are worth playing but not worth capping. So why not just cap your entire continuing range there?

In contrast, if the ranges are wider, such that there is a substantial quadrant of hands that we want to play and don't want to put in 4 bets pre- with, then it makes a lot more sense to call 100 percent of our continuing range.
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Old 07-22-2018, 04:43 PM   #8
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

i think if you have a split strat of cc/cap, i'd guess 88's is still a call most of the time. flops are gonna differ so much as to how much equity/playability 88's have postflop. think sklansky actually talked about this in hefap.
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Old 07-23-2018, 06:53 AM   #9
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

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Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
I think the "never cap out of the BB" strategy makes much more sense if you are dealing with wide ranges than it does with narrow ones. With a typical UTG raiser, you should be dealing with a pretty narrow range, and if the button is a reasonable player, she should only be 3-betting with a very narrow range that is ahead of the UTG's range. In that situation, our call is basically the same as a cap-- there shouldn't be very many hands that are worth playing but not worth capping. So why not just cap your entire continuing range there?

In contrast, if the ranges are wider, such that there is a substantial quadrant of hands that we want to play and don't want to put in 4 bets pre- with, then it makes a lot more sense to call 100 percent of our continuing range.
Weird, I think its the exact opposite (in theory). In the actual hand he wrote "UTG" which I hate because the game is 4 handed so really its a cutoff open and a button 3 bet. Now in the BB I would still call with 88 here but I think cap makes more sense than it would if the game was 9 handed, UTG raised, and someone 3 bet.
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Old 07-23-2018, 10:56 AM   #10
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Club Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

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Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
Weird, I think its the exact opposite (in theory). In the actual hand he wrote "UTG" which I hate because the game is 4 handed so really its a cutoff open and a button 3 bet. Now in the BB I would still call with 88 here but I think cap makes more sense than it would if the game was 9 handed, UTG raised, and someone 3 bet.
You are right, DD. I missed the "4 handed". Obviously, CO raise BUT 3-bet is likely to be very wide ranges, which makes calling 100 percent of your continuing range make a ton of sense.
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Old 07-23-2018, 07:08 PM   #11
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

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Originally Posted by / / ///AutoZone View Post
hand 1: i def wouldn't b/f or c/
hand 2: check turn

+1!
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Old 07-23-2018, 09:10 PM   #12
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadjoey View Post
Hand 1:

80/160 - Full ring. Villain opens UTG. I three bet AQo in MP. BB calls. Villain back caps. We both call. Flop A Q low cc. BB checks to Villain who bets. We both call. I am delaying a raise to the turn on in this spot.

Turn comes a non broadway third club. Villain bets, I raise, BB tank calls two. Villain calls.

River is a non scary card. Checks to me. B/C? B/F? Check back?


Hand 2:

40/80 - 4 handed. I am in the big blind. UTG raises, button 3 bets, I cap 88s. Call call. Flop comes K 9 x two suits. I bet, call, call. Turn is an off suit queen. Do we barrel turn river in this spot?
I'm betting hand 1, you're up against plenty of single club hands that have pairs and can pay you off. I think BB and UTG are both three betting flushes a ton on the turn as well, especially if the Ac is on board.

The queen just makes way too many hands, we're basically hoping that they both have a 9 and fold the river. Save your barrel here for like AJ. Given you'll pretty much be saying that you have AK+ to bet 3x, you don't need too many bluffs and the 8's don't really work for you on this board anyway.
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Old 07-23-2018, 10:16 PM   #13
dadjoey
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

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Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
I'm betting hand 1, you're up against plenty of single club hands that have pairs and can pay you off. I think BB and UTG are both three betting flushes a ton on the turn as well, especially if the Ac is on board.

The queen just makes way too many hands, we're basically hoping that they both have a 9 and fold the river. Save your barrel here for like AJ. Given you'll pretty much be saying that you have AK+ to bet 3x, you don't need too many bluffs and the 8's don't really work for you on this board anyway.
Thanks for all the comments. For hand 1, if I get raised, it's just a shrug call. For hand 2, I checked the turned and it... checked through. Now the river pairs the King. Options?
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Old 07-23-2018, 10:41 PM   #14
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

Seeing the turn action in Hand 2 leaves some interesting questions.

You probably have about the worst pair you could have here (maybe 77-66?). How would we play AJ/AT in this spot? Should we ever have bluff catchers? Is this a straight forward value bet? Could betting here actually cause the middle player to fold 9x? Also, is 9x an automatic value bet for either player once you check the river? I would expect Qx or JJ/TT to be an easy value bet for them, if they can even have hands that strong.
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Old 07-23-2018, 11:59 PM   #15
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

Hand 1 I raise flop. So many times villain has KK/JJ and cbet out of habit and will check back turn. We're also more likely to get value from AK if we raise flop immediately. We ideally want to keep PFR in and knock out BB who can have GS or BDFD. Whether the Ace club is on the flop is also important

Hand 2 What are you thinking when betting turn. Your hand is crap on this board against two strongish preflop ranges. Check fold turn. Flop cbet is its own issue. Calling CO "UTG" is also *barf*
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:41 PM   #16
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadjoey View Post
Thanks for all the comments. For hand 1, if I get raised, it's just a shrug call. For hand 2, I checked the turned and it... checked through. Now the river pairs the King. Options?
Now I kind of like my hand. But I'm still checking. I expect 9x to check the turn a lot. We can call a bet now for sure.
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Old 07-24-2018, 07:16 PM   #17
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Re: Two Hands: Top Two and Air

RE Phunkphish, Hand #2: Checking the flop here as bloated is pretty interesting. On K 9 x, I would feel forced to bet here in a capped 3 way pot, with a clear chance of having the best hand, feeling like I was protecting a vulnerable pocket pair. Interestingly though, any hands that are drawing to beat you will likely always call the flop, except some weird 3 outers. The possibility of being up against a calling hand (gutshot, pair, etc) and a 3 outer that will fold is probably what demands a bet here. All of this really just makes me want to call 3-bets before the flop and check instead of 4-bet check. Any flop with 2 over cards makes the check line tempting vs. reasonable ranges.

Last edited by samdash; 07-24-2018 at 07:22 PM.
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