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Old 04-11-2017, 09:10 PM   #1
dadjoey
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Two 80/160 Hands

9 Handed

UTG+2 raises, UTG+3 calls, folds around to me in the BB with pocket jacks. I call. UTG has been pretty tight but playing solid. Doesn't over defend his blinds, hasn't shown down bad cards thus far. UTG+3 is a decent player I play a fair amount with. I figure this is a good spot to smooth call and C/R favorable boards.

J 9 7 two hearts.

Check, UTG+2 bets, UTG+3 calls, I C/R, 3!, call, I cap, call, call. UTG+2 hasn't 3 bet a flop thus far this session so that's pretty strong.

Turn 10 h.

I think and check, UTG+2 checks, UTG+3 thinks and bets, I call, UTG+2 tank calls.

River K non heart.

I check, UTG+2 bets, UTG+3 folds, I ?



Hand 2:

I'm on the button. UTG+3 from the last hand opens in EP, villain next in 3 bets, I have QQ on the button and cap. BB, EP, and 3better calls.

Flop comes

8 8 2 no flush draw.

Check, check, villain donks, I raise, BB calls, villain 3bets, I cap to see where BB is at and plan to check back some turns. Both call.

Turn 8

Villain donks. I call, BB folds.

River bricks.

Villain bets. I say Aces? and hate my hand. Villain has been pretty snug, but pwning a weaker player with insane value bets.
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Old 04-11-2017, 10:13 PM   #2
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Hand 1, i would fold river and hate it given that the bet originated from UTG +2. I expect to see QQ a lot.

Hand 2, I would not cap flop. I would still call down here, though.
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Old 04-12-2017, 01:19 AM   #3
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Random observations:
Hand1:
UTG3 likely isn't that decent if he's coldcalling in that spot.
Whether you had Jh, and whether Jh is on board matters.
Villain 3b'ing QQ is light IMO give how tight ranges should be.
I'd expect to be good most of the time even after this turn, and would continue betting as played.
I'd prefer to donk/3b unless UTG2 is an aggressive spew.

Hand2:
Do you have a checkback range? IMO you should, and QQ is the ideal strong hand to checkback. AA/KK are strong enough to b/3b flop; QQ isn't. It is strong enough to delay raise safe turn though. Any pairs lower I'd want to bet to protect / gain information; QQ is that odd spot where its safer to give free cards.
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Old 04-12-2017, 09:04 AM   #4
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

h1: i can't see any hand a tight/solid guy could have on this river that we beat. when you checked the turn after capping the flop, i was planning on calling down, but given the river card, would he really play aces like that? that's a tough ass board to bet into two players given flop action with 1 pair, much moreso for a tight player. so if he doesn't have 1 pair, he has to have the straight or kings. either way, the river clearly improved his hand so i'd let it go.

h2: i don't cap that flop with queens. and definitely never to see where villain is. i'd consider k/r'ing the turn, but probably not in this spot. if the villain was snug (didn't get that info til the end of the hand), i'd slow down after he 3b the flop. what hands could he really have here? would he do that with 99? TT? I think the weakest hand he'd play that way is JJ, leaving AA/KK and the other 2 queens and 2 eights. 14:6 ain't great odds (maybe 11-12:6 b/c some times he won't 3b the eights and maybe one or two of the aces combinations). so i'd have went to call down mode after the 3b. i'd still call the river and hate it just b/c of pot size and the random off chance he overvalued JJ/TT. you said he has value bet light against this one guy, there's a chance that he's done that to others and you haven't seen it b/c they folded. i'm not happy about it, but i call it down. and i'd have preferred to have done so after his flop 3b.
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Old 04-12-2017, 01:24 PM   #5
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Hand 1 I would expect to see KK and QQ alot but I think you have to call one bet with a set and hope to see a smaller flopped or turned set. With the amount in the pot it seems a clear mistake to be folding the winner here. A snug player still can see a good opportunity to represent a queen and turn lesser hands into bluffs.

I read alot of posts where op seems to think they should play hands they lost differently but rarely a post where op had the QQ or JJ vs 10 10 or any lower pair and missed out on alot of value. Or the importance of accepting the cooler happened and moving on to playing the next hand dealt as well as possible. In 25 years playing limit holdem I've always thought an underrated skill was being able to recall opponents tendencies without questioning your own play ultimately eroding your confidence
Hand 2: I think a big mistake all limit players make is fearing the one or two hands in the deck which beat them. Is it impossible he plays 10 10 JJ or QQ the same way? If you have a very specific read I think I still pay it off lol. Honestly when you get dealt QQ vs Kings or aces Im ok with losing and moving on without too much regret.

Last edited by Omahaisbetter; 04-12-2017 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 04-12-2017, 02:12 PM   #6
jdr0317
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

One thing I'd like to add on Omaha's post is that sometimes you just lose. It's Limit Hold Em, so it's not all that damaging and the reciprocity is absolutely minimal. Worry about soul read folding QQ on 882-8 in NL where it may make a difference if you're the one capable of folding and the other guy isn't.

What's more important here is understanding when there's no value in a raise. I think 4 betting QQ in this spot was spewy.
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Old 04-12-2017, 05:39 PM   #7
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
One thing I'd like to add on Omaha's post is that sometimes you just lose. It's Limit Hold Em, so it's not all that damaging and the reciprocity is absolutely minimal. Worry about soul read folding QQ on 882-8 in NL where it may make a difference if you're the one capable of folding and the other guy isn't.

What's more important here is understanding when there's no value in a raise. I think 4 betting QQ in this spot was spewy.
not sure about this whole reciprocity thing lol, but getting 17:1 w/ QQ on an 88x8board i'm paying that off begrudgingly. first hand is way easier to fold b/c of the read on the player and the board.
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Old 04-12-2017, 05:40 PM   #8
jdr0317
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

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Originally Posted by UpHillBothWays View Post
not sure about this whole reciprocity thing lol, but getting 17:1 w/ QQ on an 88x8board i'm paying that off begrudgingly. first hand is way easier to fold b/c of the read on the player and the board.

Just that when the roles are reversed (and we have AA/KK and he has QQ), the result is about the same in our favor. So i would really never sweat paying off.


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Old 04-12-2017, 11:23 PM   #9
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Quote:
Check, check, villain donks, I raise, BB calls, villain 3bets, I cap to see where BB is at and plan to check back some turns. Both call.
'To see where someone is at' is one of the worst reasons to raise in limit. You raise because you have an equity advantage, or for protection, or to bluff. Never to see where you're at because you're often just as clueless after you do it as you were before except you've now bloated the pot and made mistakes more expensive.

And why would you ever want to cap with the plan of checking the turn? If you're so worried that you can't bet then why did you cap the flop? And that extra half bet you earn on the flop, you just gave back on the turn when he would have b/3b and barreled TT, or when he just donks the turn and denies your checkback

By capping with the plan of checking you're just mishmashing several lines together in to some weird abortion of a line.
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Old 04-14-2017, 10:32 PM   #10
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Hand 1 I don't think we can fold, even though we lose most of the time villain should show up with aa/smaller set, maybe even 2 pair rarely

Hand 2 will vary my line by villain, I don't really expect to be good here but if we are playing someone who could take this line with ak/tt/jj/qq we certainly can't fold
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:39 PM   #11
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
Hand2:
Do you have a checkback range? IMO you should, and QQ is the ideal strong hand to checkback. AA/KK are strong enough to b/3b flop; QQ isn't. It is strong enough to delay raise safe turn though. Any pairs lower I'd want to bet to protect / gain information; QQ is that odd spot where its safer to give free cards.


I think this is backwards. I'm not sure our capping range needs to check back on 882 but if it did I would obviously start with weaker hands (maybe KQs?) and if I needed to check a strong hand to protect that I think aces is much better than queens. Just less bad turn cards.
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Old 04-16-2017, 03:43 PM   #12
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Cbetting into 2 players 100%, even on dry boards, is bad, especially since their ranges are uncapped.

Again, AA is strong enough to b/3b, so delaying is losing value. With QQ, there are more bad turns.. but betting won't often protect us against those bad turns anyways. Any Ax and Kx is gonna float. If we can't protect, we might as well take the higher EV line of raising safe turns.
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Old 04-17-2017, 07:49 PM   #13
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
I think this is backwards. I'm not sure our capping range needs to check back on 882 but if it did I would obviously start with weaker hands (maybe KQs?) and if I needed to check a strong hand to protect that I think aces is much better than queens. Just less bad turn cards.
+1 i check back aces + kings here like it's my job. Never checking queens. Also I don't 4bet preflop (with anything) in this spot unless the original raiser is a bad player
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Old 04-17-2017, 08:21 PM   #14
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Avoid: vs good players who raise and 3 bet full ring you never cold 4 bet? You just coldcall your continuing range and add one or two combos of suited things that are a borderline fold? Just clarifying (I think it's a fine strat )
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Old 04-17-2017, 09:41 PM   #15
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
Avoid: vs good players who raise and 3 bet full ring you never cold 4 bet? You just coldcall your continuing range and add one or two combos of suited things that are a borderline fold? Just clarifying (I think it's a fine strat )
yep! i don't narrow my opening range past ~9% preflop vs good players. I instead flat my entire range and add all the fun suited connectors. ESPECIALLY when BB is a fish. Much prefer to trade our marginal equity advantage vs a pro for any other spot that occurs =D It's also hilarious to watch the pros get super frustrated when you are just flatting their opens wide. It drastically hurts their EV in many situations where they end up playing mw oop. "Why the fk do you never 3bet my ep opens? So weird" I facepalm pretty hard when I open UTG, and a TAG 3bets... knocking out the bb fish and isolating me? that choice though =P

also, I actually strongly believe it's completely fine to flat a weak unbalanced range when the BB is a fish if you play well postflop. I play tons of spots with the fish, working hard to push tag's out of the pot and invite my friends (the strongest AI's flat an unbalanced 10% from the SB currently... and that's in a gto environment ;o)
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Old 04-18-2017, 02:58 PM   #16
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Where are JonLocke and ZOMG? I'm sure they'd love to explain how you're completely wrong about everything =D
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Old 04-19-2017, 10:22 AM   #17
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Quote:
Originally Posted by avoidthe9to5 View Post
yep! i don't narrow my opening range past ~9% preflop vs good players. I instead flat my entire range and add all the fun suited connectors. ESPECIALLY when BB is a fish. Much prefer to trade our marginal equity advantage vs a pro for any other spot that occurs =D It's also hilarious to watch the pros get super frustrated when you are just flatting their opens wide. It drastically hurts their EV in many situations where they end up playing mw oop. "Why the fk do you never 3bet my ep opens? So weird" I facepalm pretty hard when I open UTG, and a TAG 3bets... knocking out the bb fish and isolating me? that choice though =P

also, I actually strongly believe it's completely fine to flat a weak unbalanced range when the BB is a fish if you play well postflop. I play tons of spots with the fish, working hard to push tag's out of the pot and invite my friends (the strongest AI's flat an unbalanced 10% from the SB currently... and that's in a gto environment ;o)
Please write a book.
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Old 04-19-2017, 01:41 PM   #18
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Does this dispel the never cold call first in advice? Or does cold calling first in only apply if BB is fishy and we never do it if BB is tough?
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Old 04-21-2017, 11:42 AM   #19
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

hand 1: betting turn is automatic and then calling any river is almost automatic given that pot is large and it'd be reasonable for a player to value bet a bit lighter than you or bluff when checked to.

hand 2: raising turn for a free showdown is probably best given that you can fold if he shows more aggression
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Old 04-25-2017, 12:05 AM   #20
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Re: Two 80/160 Hands

Hand 1:
You have a detailed description of UTG+2, but UTG+3 who you play with lots there is little description. What is he going to flat with EP (which doesn't seem particularly decent)?

Again on the flop, what is he calling, then calling 3 bet, then calling cap with? 99/77/JTs make sense to me, but I don't know villain. There's a bunch of other hands but eliminated because river action makes no sense.

What were you planning to do on an AKQh turn? 6-2h turn?

Hand 2:
Flop play doesn't make sense to me. Villain is showing strength. BB has cold called a 4bet pre. What % of turns allow 'and plan to check back some turns'?

---------

"I don't narrow my opening range past ~9% preflop vs good players. I instead flat my entire range and add all the fun suited connectors"
80/160 in particular, has, in my opinion, too much capping. From a small sample 400/800 has perhaps not enough. Don't know about in between.

New user here. I wasn't allowed to quote, so I hope you can suss the posts out.
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