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Old 06-07-2018, 07:54 PM   #1
DonkeyOnTilt
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Turn top pair on wet board

20/40, amazing game.

Looooooose guy limps UTG, next up folds and I raise KdTd. Behind me a loose, passive 3-bets. A tricky, good player calls 3 in the SB and BB folds.

Flop comes 9d7d4c, SB checks, UTG donks and I call. 2 more call and we go to the turn of Ts. SB checks, UTG checks and now it's on me. I'm not loving it but I feel a bet is in order. Next to act folds and now SB springs the trap with a X/R. UTG folds and its on me. I call and see an offsuit King on the river giving me top two. Another bet from SB. I'm struggling to find a hand I beat but I'm not wasting brain power with top two for one bet so I call.

Any other way to play this?
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Old 06-07-2018, 08:54 PM   #2
MacauBound
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

Raising river might be too ambitious, but I'd prob consider it for at least a few seconds and would make sure I don't level myself into a bad fold w a good hand in a big pot.

We beat JJ if he cc that, assuming he's not even considering flatting pre w QQ/KK/AA. Also T9s, AdTd. We lose to 99, 77, and QJ. I can't think of any other hands he could show up with, but Idk what his SB cc range consists of. Turn bet seems good.
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Old 06-07-2018, 09:19 PM   #3
checkraisdraw
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

Well played. Never folding river or checking turn since we have a ton of outs when beat.
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:40 AM   #4
ninefingershuffle
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

Raise
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Old 06-08-2018, 11:07 AM   #5
PocketKings
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacauBound View Post
We beat JJ if he cc that, assuming he's not even considering flatting pre w QQ/KK/AA. Also T9s, AdTd. We lose to 99, 77, and QJ. I can't think of any other hands he could show up with, but Idk what his SB cc range consists of. Turn bet seems good.
Td is in Hero's hand.

If SB a good player probably close. Also Hero doesn't want to raise/fold against a tricky player here.
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Old 06-08-2018, 11:09 AM   #6
Munga30
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

SB called pre expecting 4way action frequently and being OOP both relative and absolutely to the passive 3bettor. It's more difficult to give 44 and 77 than an overpair. Then didn't jam the flop multiway when nobody can fold. Super rarely a set because even tricky and good can't pass up this value, imo. And then when he has an opportunity to try to get HU with what I expect to be a reasonably straightforward bet-when-checked-to (you), he does so by raising. Smells like one pair. QdJd and QcJc too, I guess but I'm straining "good" to get there. Raise/call the river.

Be sure to note UTG's donk flop kf turn if you haven't already.
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Old 06-08-2018, 03:00 PM   #7
SetofJacks
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

What do you lose to? J8 and 68?
Isn't ATs much more likely?
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:17 PM   #8
holmfries
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

Hrmmmm...interesting hand. I think if you told me who SB was it would be pretty clear what to do on the river. I assume by “tricky” you mean he knows a loose passive is only three betting AK and QQ-AA, maybe JJ. I feel like he shouldn’t be checking a set twice here - no guarantee UTG will bet the turn. So I guess I feel like he has 97s, T9s a lot here. Then again he is tricky so he could have have turned a huge draw like QdJd and decided to CR when UTG didn’t bet the turn.

So I guess raise and fold to 3!?
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Old 06-09-2018, 01:26 AM   #9
MacauBound
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketKings View Post
Td is in Hero's hand.

If SB a good player probably close. Also Hero doesn't want to raise/fold against a tricky player here.
whoops that's an oversight on my part (though only eliminates 1 combo).

I like your quickie perspective and I really like Munga's more in-depth analysis. But I still don't know whether I like a nitroll or raise/call (could never r/f when JJ/QQ are possibly 3b candidates). Mostly bc it's tough for me to assign a proper range to the SB and to a much lesser extent, worrying that a river raise will sometimes fold out worse and induce 3b from all better hands at a frequency that makes the nitroll more attractive.
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Old 06-09-2018, 10:25 AM   #10
CrazyLond
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

I would raise/call river.

TT is about the only hand that makes sense that we lose to and that's only 1 combo. Slow playing 99 or 77 on this flop seems horrendous because so many scare cards can potentially shut down turn action. T9s seems like the most likely value hand but it could also be an overpair that wanted to see if you or loose passive was going to raise turn before putting in aggressive action.

I'd consider raising flop because the pot's big, people are going to call 2 bets with a wide range, and our equity 4 ways has to be pretty great with a FD, BDSD and 2 overs. I understand the concern of isolating vs. a made hand but because the pot is big, loose passive isn't folding 2 overs and sb will also call a lot. Even 3 ways, our equity is probably >1/3.

Also, I think turn bet is very clear, there's little reason to think your hand isn't good when it's checked to you.
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Old 06-09-2018, 10:47 AM   #11
/ / ///AutoZone
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

nh
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:08 AM   #12
/ / ///AutoZone
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

so nobody disputes the fact villain is good, but he cc'd 3 in sb and....
Quote:
Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
So I guess I feel like he has 97s, T9s a lot here.
So I guess raise and fold to 3!?
i'm confused as to what range you guys are putting him on and how much of that range is likely to call your raise. (if he has 97s he should have 86s some of the time. and possibly j8s and 44).
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:15 AM   #13
CrazyLond
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

Perhaps there's a 20% chance he'd call with 97s, 10% chance with 86s, and 2% chance with J8s? You can never fully discount anything but 97s is significantly stronger in this spot than J8s because it's more connected and a 9 is less likely to be dominated than a jack.
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:26 AM   #14
/ / ///AutoZone
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

let's say we take j8s out of his range, and give him a more "reasonable" which is still bad. 77, 99, tt, discounted 86s, 97s, t8s, t9s, jts, qts, kts, ats, qjs. we are 48%. then add in more unlikely spews like 87s, 89s, 88, and 65s. now we're doing better . but how many pair of 8's is he calling? even if he pays off all bare t's+, and folding most 9's-, we're a dogl. let alone, if he even barrels with a pair of 9's or 88.
fwiw i tend to think qjo should be included if he's calling 97s. if that's the case, raising river isn't even close.
it's better tho just to build from a range of most likely and debatably good c/r bet river lines. vs that, you are lighting money on fire.

Last edited by / / ///AutoZone; 06-09-2018 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 06-10-2018, 09:59 PM   #15
COCOCHANEL
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

Raise flop; raise river.
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Old 06-10-2018, 10:18 PM   #16
holmfries
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Re: Turn top pair on wet board

FWIW tricky does not equal good to me. Tricky just means capable of make it plays and generally people who like to make plays call wider pf.
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