20-40 ten handed

Good tag opens UTG, next in calls, gambler 1 calls in cutoff, gambler 2 three bets button, I call with KQhh in the BB, TAG caps. 5 to the flop.

Flop comes KT6dd. I check, tag bets, two gamblers call, I call. 4 to turn Turn is Qr

I mean, TAG's range is like AA/AK/KK/QQ, maybe JJ here? You beat 14 of those betting combos and only lose to 2, so k/r the turn.

Leading could cost us a lot of value, xr if it comes back 1 bet and calling if it comes back 2 looks solid

Donk 3 betting turn shouldn't be considered if UTG raises.

The turn is gonna get bet and most likely by the UTG. Trap the bad players with a CR. You want no more than two bets going in on this turn.

1.) Isn’t it a disaster if it checks through?

2.) Do we really want to be playing river out of position four way when we dislijevseveral River cards?

1) I wouldn't think the turn gets checked through often given the UTG range and two "gamblers" behind.

2) you're gonna be playing OOP on the river no matter what. If two bets go in on the turn, I wanna be the one putting it in.

grunch.

super easy kr imo. so much so that i'm struggling to see what the question might be. is it b/c you're worried about the turn checking through? if so there's 2 key factors that make this not a problem here:

1. there's no hands in UTG's range at the moment that would a) bet the flop, and b) check the turn. MAYBE JJ specifically or i guess if he got frisky with 99 pf and then ALSO decided to bet the flop (which i don't think is likely). but JJ picked up equity and he may bet again with it (or he may have checked the flop with it).

2. if you check and utg checks, it may get checked through. probably unlikely with the gamblers there; however, even if it does, there's nothing that they're folding for 1 bet and then another 1 bet that they'd get a free chance to see a river with for free if it checks through. i.e. your equity doesnt' change here since there's nothing that's a threat that they'd fold for 1/then another bet. the check through disasters are not relevant this hand b/c they don't exist

is it because you may have to call 3 bets if you k/r? if so then there's another issue with that:

3. if you k/r and are behind you may have to call 3 bets: false. first, it's pretty unlikely you're behind. second, it's suicide to 3b anything less than a set here as utg after you k/r (and in reality he can't even do that). indeed, to any good UTG who reads hands, that Q leaves SO MANY more possibilities of straights (4xAJs, he prob wouldn't ignore you having 4xJ9s) than 2 pairs (only possibility is KQ, which depending on suits is only 1-2 options) and other sets (TT/66 are the only possibilities given pf play and those are only 3 options each). so if you bet and are raised it's the same as k/r'ing in this exact consideration b/c he'd have to be NUTS to 3b the turn (i'd certainly NOT 3b a k/r from the bb in this hand on the turn even though there's 50/50 chance i'm beat b/c when i'm beat and i kr i have to call another bet when the bb caps, which he'd do with j9s and ajs)

so yea i don't see why anything but a k/r makes any sense on this turn in this hand

ok so i'm not crazy lol.

nine-> mason would say something about how you're misapplying his concepts. the "turn check through is a disaster when you whiff a k/r" has variables that make it more or less true. in this case, all the variables point towards it not being at all true (villians, action, ranges, pot size, etc.).

I think you should be leading or check/raising this flop.

Is the PF call standard? I feel like I'd wanna fold. It's a 10-handed game and a good tag opened utg. His range should crush our hand. Now the BN 3bets so when we call we don't close the action and there's a good chance utg will cap it given the strength of his range. So we're looking at potentially putting in 3bets pre oop MW with a hand that faces serious domination and we're never comfortable with our hand even if we make TP. Thoughts?

I wouldn’t want to lead into his range here. Similarly, once he bets into 4 people I’m unlikely ahead.

How wide is his UTG opening range? I know you said he's TAG, so it probably doesn't include ATs, KJs, QJs?

These are all hands that a LAG would raise pre and probably cap against a gambler's 3-bet and several tagalongs, and these hands would also bet the flop.

But if we're looking at a much tighter range of something like [AJs+, AQo+, 99+, KQs] and a capping range of [AQs+,AKo,JJ+] then I agree with your assessment although I think he'll still bet hands that you beat like JJ, QQ, and AQ (especially with fd or bdfd).

This would be a good spot for the TAG to expand his capping range pre.

In order to do that he’d have to expand his opening range which probably isn’t a great idea

He's opening 99's, AQ, AJs isn't he? He's not auto capping these usually I'd presume.

leading this flop is definitely a disaster.

i don't see how a gto bot would have a lead out range in this spot, but if it does it would probably include something like QJdx where it doesn't have the flush draw but is semi-protected from smaller flush draws in case the gamblers have one.

any other optimized action should be a check and call or check and raise, which i can see some good first cracks at buckets for and those make sense.

Are you really so sure what a gto bot does with top pair/2nd best kicker + backdoor straight draw on a two tone board in a 20 bet 5 handed pot that includes 1 good tag, 1 (?) cold caller, 2 gamblers and itself?

And why are we looking for optimization anyway? Also, how can any line that doesn't include folding the best hand be called a disaster here?

Folding pre is out of the question given the table dynamics as described. I prefer a preflop call to a cap so we can get in a spot like this to face the field with an extra bet on the turn.


I love it as played as long as you correctly check raise the turn now.

Concur with all of this re preflop. Also the call is forbinfo to see if utg caps

Corrected my post.

My point was that I don't think this spot has been solved or that it even matters much what a gto bot leads or checks with when multiple players are likely making very exploitable mistakes.

10 handed LHE and a 'good tag' raises utg and it's 2 more bets? A lot of days I'd throw this one away I think. (don't remember the last time I played 10 handed lhe tho. ICK) Good tag to me means on the overly tight side yet not a moron postflop. A lot of tag's are not all that good, but I'm working with the description.

Make it 9 handed and a regular pro and I'm in 100%

I certainly thought about it. I would have mucked both KQo and KJs

i'm not so sure, just using the info i've seen in multiway spots. but you're right, that's not super relevant here since those %s won't change much of what we're doing here.

costing yourself money, reducing the hand's playability, and putting yourself in a spot to be outplayed is what i'd call a disaster.

You could be right. It's just that I've always pretty much had a zero donking strategy from the BB and have recently started trying to work some in. I agree that tag's narrow range should make us lean towards being balanced. But if you're ever going to forego balance in order to potentially increase your chances of winning, it seems to me that a bloated multi-way pot like this where several people are likely making significant errors anyway is the spot to do so.

Btw- I also think a good tag's range will be a bit wider than most others seem to. I could be wrong.

AA/AK will have some decent outs to beat you when you C/R the field. Its funny though, because most other people's outs will chop with them, unless they occasionally trip up or some garbage.

If you check turn and PFR now checks JJ, there will of course be the chance one of later players bets with Kx, AQ, or smaller two pair. Think about how the PFR raiser would feel with JJ on a K Q T board when its 2 cold back to him.

Just be prepared to commit suicide on A, J, T, and 9 river cards.