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TT's vs tight range. TT's vs tight range.

01-07-2023 , 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crispix
Wasn¬’t this a thing a few years back when it was Cbet range on flop 100%. At that point the adjustment was to never have a cap range prelfop and check raise the crap out of the flop? That turned upside down when solvers came in and people started having a check back range and thus capping pre and donking the flop became tools to counteract losing value.
IMO depends. Would encourage checking tpiranha well still applicable LHE Live or Online.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...2&postcount=46

PS: Flop check back range & having wide cap range PF standard per samples LHE Live & Online.
Flop check back, Ninefingershuffle should know. PF cap range Solvers / sheseasy likely has answer

OT: Could always PM bicyclekick or DonJuan for coaching which I think should have best answer

Last edited by maka2184; 01-07-2023 at 01:59 PM. Reason: DonJuan & Bicyclekick #1 AINEC (●^o^●)
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-07-2023 , 01:51 PM
Duplicate post by accident.

Mods can you delete post?

Last edited by maka2184; 01-07-2023 at 01:58 PM. Reason: DonJuan & Bicyclekick #1 AINEC (●^o^●)
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-07-2023 , 01:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
He seems a bit nitty and straight forward.
There are many reasons to cap preflop, one of them being that capping preflop will make your hand much easier to play postflop especially given your read on BB.
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-07-2023 , 09:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crispix
Wasnít this a thing a few years back when it was Cbet range on flop 100%. At that point the adjustment was to never have a cap range prelfop and check raise the crap out of the flop? That turned upside down when solvers came in and people started having a check back range and thus capping pre and donking the flop became tools to counteract losing value.
There was a substantial period of time where the common wisdom on 2p2 was to never 3-bet out of the BB heads up. Not just because people c-bet too much, and you could therefore reliably make the half-bet back by check-raising the flop, but more importantly because it would keep your calling range uncapped and because it would allow you to evaluate the flop as the OOP player and then deciding how to proceed.

A solved range will 3-bet, and the in position player will sometimes 4-bet. But that strategy involves some mixing that is a bit difficult to accomplish in the real world, and I'd be interested in what the ev difference is between a flat-only strategy and one that 3-bets out of the blind. Same with a strategy of never 4-betting HU vs. a 3-bet. I wouldn't be surprised if the ev difference is pretty small, and assuming it is, there is some merit to the never re-raising strategy for the purpose of simplifying your preflop strategy and making your post-flop range a bit less predictable.

OTOH, if your re-raising range is a bit too narrow because you're not mixing in some of the junkier stuff often enough, that's probably fine because most players won't effectively exploit you anyway. And in that case, there's a lot of merit to the idea that we just want to get bets in when we can while we are way ahead.
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-08-2023 , 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardinthepaint
There was a substantial period of time where the common wisdom on 2p2 was to never 3-bet out of the BB heads up. Not just because people c-bet too much, and you could therefore reliably make the half-bet back by check-raising the flop, but more importantly because it would keep your calling range uncapped and because it would allow you to evaluate the flop as the OOP player and then deciding how to proceed.

A solved range will 3-bet, and the in position player will sometimes 4-bet. But that strategy involves some mixing that is a bit difficult to accomplish in the real world, and I'd be interested in what the ev difference is between a flat-only strategy and one that 3-bets out of the blind. Same with a strategy of never 4-betting HU vs. a 3-bet. I wouldn't be surprised if the ev difference is pretty small, and assuming it is, there is some merit to the never re-raising strategy for the purpose of simplifying your preflop strategy and making your post-flop range a bit less predictable.

OTOH, if your re-raising range is a bit too narrow because you're not mixing in some of the junkier stuff often enough, that's probably fine because most players won't effectively exploit you anyway. And in that case, there's a lot of merit to the idea that we just want to get bets in when we can while we are way ahead.
+1 tpiranha indicated PF is mistakes often made on past on Well.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...2&postcount=46

PS: Was unable to find old tpiranna Blog post "Importace of Preflop Play" https://piranhapokerteam.com/index.php/page/14/

Maybe PM DonJuan who may still have it ?

Last edited by maka2184; 01-08-2023 at 01:39 PM. Reason: DonJuan & Bicyclekick #1 AINEC (●^o^●)
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-10-2023 , 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crispix
Wasn’t this a thing a few years back when it was Cbet range on flop 100%. At that point the adjustment was to never have a cap range prelfop and check raise the crap out of the flop? That turned upside down when solvers came in and people started having a check back range and thus capping pre and donking the flop became tools to counteract losing value.
This this is totally true; I'm more referring to this particular spot, where we can't raise utg, cap, and donk-check. If we weren't OOP I like capping a lot more cause we have a check back range. Checking back and donk checking are totally different obv, especially here. If you raise UTG and cap pre, what are you donk checking ever?
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-10-2023 , 10:29 AM
I donk checked akcc out of the small blind cap three ways the other day on a qj2sss board and then folded for one bet
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-10-2023 , 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetaGameOver
This this is totally true; I'm more referring to this particular spot, where we can't raise utg, cap, and donk-check. If we weren't OOP I like capping a lot more cause we have a check back range. Checking back and donk checking are totally different obv, especially here. If you raise UTG and cap pre, what are you donk checking ever?
why canít you donk check? never understood the belief you need to auto cbet every flop. in fact the whole point of the exploit youíre talking about is to exploit opponents who always cbet.
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-10-2023 , 11:40 PM
You can totally cap pre for value if you want and then donk check the AKQ flop. There’s also reasons to just call pre too
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-13-2023 , 05:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw
why can’t you donk check? never understood the belief you need to auto cbet every flop. in fact the whole point of the exploit you’re talking about is to exploit opponents who always cbet.
I don't believe you need to auto cbet every flop. I have a check back range, as should any good player. I just think this exploit doesn't work so well OOP, especially after an EP open. Your range is much narrower and disproportionately stronger then any villains, and will consist almost entirely of value bets (especially if you end up 3b/cap). Also, you're not guaranteed a turn card, which is imo one major plus of having a check back range. Even when you're lucky enough to see the turn, way fewer turn cards credibly improve you. If the flop does nail you, how often are you really gonna donk c/r? I could go on.

Tldr; I think checking back is a profitable exploit. Being the EP aggressor and donk checking otoh is very problematic.

That's why if I open UTG and end up in a multi capped pot, I like not being the last aggressor. I have a wider range that's still strong and I can c/f, c/r, donk - basically keep my options open.
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-13-2023 , 05:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle
I donk checked akcc out of the small blind cap three ways the other day on a qj2sss board and then folded for one bet
How do you balance this though? If it's qj2cch you're gonna bet. Same with KXXr and pretty much anything where you have equity.
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-13-2023 , 10:32 AM
I don’t balance it. I’m drawing close to dead on that flop. It’s ok to have some give ups. I can check like AxKs or something.

On the posted hand you aren’t exactly out of position. You are in position to the three bettor.
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-13-2023 , 10:53 AM
I don’t you need to balance on multi-way pots. The reason is because the best hand most probably gets to showdown and protects you and everyone else from being exploited. Balance is much more valuable heads up where bluffs and re-bluffs are a real possibility during wide range situations
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-13-2023 , 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetaGameOver
I don't believe you need to auto cbet every flop. I have a check back range, as should any good player. I just think this exploit doesn't work so well OOP, especially after an EP open. Your range is much narrower and disproportionately stronger then any villains, and will consist almost entirely of value bets (especially if you end up 3b/cap). Also, you're not guaranteed a turn card, which is imo one major plus of having a check back range. Even when you're lucky enough to see the turn, way fewer turn cards credibly improve you. If the flop does nail you, how often are you really gonna donk c/r? I could go on.

Tldr; I think checking back is a profitable exploit. Being the EP aggressor and donk checking otoh is very problematic.

That's why if I open UTG and end up in a multi capped pot, I like not being the last aggressor. I have a wider range that's still strong and I can c/f, c/r, donk - basically keep my options open.
If we want to talk about GTO/balanced play, donk-checking OOP is very common. So I donít really follow this logic.

The logical conclusion of your strategy is that you will be playing bigger pots with more marginal hands OOP. We would prefer to play bigger pots IP than OOP, because we will have more info and make better decisions. Of course our OOP range from EP will be generally stronger so it balances out, but not so strong that we can just auto cbet every flop in multiway pots.
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-13-2023 , 03:06 PM
Also, checking back on the flop isn't an "exploit." It is part of an optimal strategy. Having a 100% c-bet frequency would be an exploit, designed to exploit players who over-fold, etc. Same is true for donk checking OOP. Not having a donk-check range would be an exploit, whether HU or muliway.

Also, you totally should have c/r hands on qj2sss. Just because it is a big multiway pot doesn't mean we need to just ram and jam every strong hand we have.
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-13-2023 , 09:26 PM
Checking back on the flop can be either. Obv can be used an an exploit by adjusting your range for it to different villains.

Look I'm not saying that donk checking after opening/acting as last aggressor is wrong or some kind of a mistake. It's fine. I'm just saying I prefer not being the one who caps in this type of pot so I have more options and a wider range when the flop comes. I don't think just calling a 3bet with your whole range is superior in anyway objective way, I just prefer it for the reasons I mentioned. If either option is technically more profitable, I'm sure it's incredibly close either way I'm taking a more subjective approach to this discussion, apologies if I've come across differently.
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-14-2023 , 12:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetaGameOver
Checking back on the flop can be either. Obv can be used an an exploit by adjusting your range for it to different villains.

Look I'm not saying that donk checking after opening/acting as last aggressor is wrong or some kind of a mistake. It's fine. I'm just saying I prefer not being the one who caps in this type of pot so I have more options and a wider range when the flop comes. I don't think just calling a 3bet with your whole range is superior in anyway objective way, I just prefer it for the reasons I mentioned. If either option is technically more profitable, I'm sure it's incredibly close either way I'm taking a more subjective approach to this discussion, apologies if I've come across differently.
I like capping because I like people to know that if they 3bet me light I will cap it on them quite frequently.

I used to take the more ďsneakyĒ approach but I find a split range to be more fun/profitable.

I definitely think itís splitting hairs at a certain point.
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-24-2023 , 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw
I like capping because I like people to know that if they 3bet me light I will cap it on them quite frequently.

I used to take the more ďsneakyĒ approach but I find a split range to be more fun/profitable.

I definitely think itís splitting hairs at a certain point.
I don't think people will adjust to you capping them as much as you think. I think most players just do what they do.
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-24-2023 , 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
I don't think people will adjust to you capping them as much as you think. I think most players just do what they do.
I mean the people I play with I have a lot of history with. If you donít think people adjust based on history I think you are completely off base.
TT's vs tight range. Quote
01-24-2023 , 06:08 PM
Cap 87s too
TT's vs tight range. Quote
Yesterday , 01:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
I don't think people will adjust to you capping them as much as you think. I think most players just do what they do.
I adjust based on history. Everyone who's game I respect does so. Don't you adjust based on history? My standard ranges are for randoms, or spots when the history doesn't include the info I'd need to confidently adjust. I'd be surprised to find any strong players who don't think this way.
TT's vs tight range. Quote
Today , 01:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle
Cap 87s too
Itís always correct to cap with 56s+. Especially after a few IPAís.
TT's vs tight range. Quote
Today , 12:33 PM
I mean, your equity 4 ways with suited connectors is close enough to zero ev that I love capping those to protect the other hands I cap. To me, whether to cap tt here depends on the bb’s range. If he can have like AJs then I like a cap. If he is really tight, then I like a call. People tend to play super tight in terms of raises in bb
TT's vs tight range. Quote

      
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