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Old 06-07-2018, 07:44 PM   #1
DonkeyOnTilt
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Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

20/40 7 handed. Amazing game.

Fold to super loose, super aggro rec player who opens one off the button. I have QsJs and 3-bet the SB. Super loose, also pretty aggro donator calls BB as does initial raiser.

Flop comes 987 one spade. Not the best of flops but I can call raises so I bet and get called twice. Turn is the 4s giving me a flush draw. I bet again but think maybe since I was called twice on the flop checking might be best? Anyway, BB now raises and gets called. I call as well.

River is a red Jack, BB checks and aggro guy bets. I tank and.....?
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Old 06-08-2018, 12:11 AM   #2
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

Does the flop include a flush draw? I just check the turn. Fold the river.
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Old 06-08-2018, 12:39 AM   #3
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

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Originally Posted by dadjoey View Post
Does the flop include a flush draw? I just check the turn. Fold the river.
Now that I remember it did have 2 diamonds, 1 spade so there was 2 flush draws possible on the turn.
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Old 06-08-2018, 01:17 AM   #4
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

i would've checked flop.
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Old 06-08-2018, 02:06 AM   #5
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

.
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Old 06-08-2018, 03:27 AM   #6
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

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i would've checked flop.
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:39 AM   #7
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

River is an easy call. I also would have checked flop.
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Old 06-08-2018, 07:54 PM   #8
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

I don’t see much benefit of betting the flop. As played pot is bloated you have to call the river
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Old 06-09-2018, 10:37 AM   #9
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

I like the double barrel. I feel like if you check the flop, you pretty much never are bluffing when you do bet. I'd cry call the river.
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Old 06-10-2018, 04:54 AM   #10
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

flop is a must bet w BDFD+gutter+two over. As a matter of fact I am pretty sure GTO is a mix 3b about 30%-50%.
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Old 06-10-2018, 05:02 AM   #11
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

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flop is a must bet w BDFD+gutter+two over. As a matter of fact I am pretty sure GTO is a mix 3b about 30%-50%.
For the record I don't auto bet when i 3bet the small but here i just dont care if I'm raised so I thought it was a super easy bet. I see opinions are mixed so I'm happy to hear crusher donjuan agrees with my flop play.
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Old 06-10-2018, 06:03 PM   #12
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

if we need value hands in our checking range, i feel like checking kk could be good. but from what donjuan is saying, it seems like having a polarized checking range is pretty much non-existent in this scenario.
like, we have plenty of middle a hi's and k hi's plus 7's and 8's that we can also check which makes me think, is checking close to our entire range that bad? i'm not saying it's optimal, but for argument's sake, i don't think it's that bad. range wise we're only 33% anyway, and i think we gain more information checking than betting (maybe?)

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Old 06-10-2018, 06:12 PM   #13
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

like bet jt, 99, aa, jj, tt, 9x, fd's and check rest for instance. and c/r other sets on flop, delay turn with kk qq etc
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Old 06-10-2018, 09:57 PM   #14
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

NH, IMO.

Crying call on river most of the time...
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Old 06-10-2018, 11:10 PM   #15
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

Solve this from pre flop by asking yourself what btn open and sb 3b then you figure out what BB is cold calling. Usually the answer is 3b around half combos wise to whoever open. Then BB is probably most likely not playing correctly by merging whole range into CC or fold and not 4b/CC range. From there you figure out since 3bettor has twice less combos then opener it can pretty much cbet any flop when compare to the bet size to pot(important concept). The tricky part now is that BB in theory range should have a capping range but most likely most reg like to merge. So we should be bit wary of BB since it has more equity however BB probably can't overcome it mistake pre flop by not capping a mix balance range. Anyway if we can cbet 100% vs opener but can't vs BB we can separate the top/middle/bottom. Remember SB 3b is already starting with a smaller combos so just think something like 55/44/AK/AQ/KQ/QJ without BDFD can be donk check and that a decent chunk already. Then next stop you have KTs/QJ+BDFD/AT that consider draws+over that has good equity. Part of this range aren't that many combos which works perfectly for a b/3b but you wouldn't want to use 100% of those combos and instead mix 30-50%.

Last edited by DonJuan; 06-10-2018 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 06-11-2018, 05:32 AM   #16
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

Im wondering about some of your initial assumptions.
Does sb have a cc range? Many players don't.
Did you factor this in when you assume sb's range is half of openers range?
I would assume sb's flat range is mostly absorbed into his raising range --> sb's range should be closer to 2/3 of openers range.
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Old 06-11-2018, 09:11 AM   #17
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

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Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
Im wondering about some of your initial assumptions.
Does sb have a cc range? Many players don't.
Did you factor this in when you assume sb's range is half of openers range?
I would assume sb's flat range is mostly absorbed into his raising range --> sb's range should be closer to 2/3 of openers range.
vs a btn open, i think cc range in sb is out of the question. out of all sb 3betting scenarios, this is the best bang for your buck being that we are able to quickly narrow down what bb can continue with to the largest degree and vs a weak open (a bb cc range is a lot closer to his cc range if utg opens as opposed to what we 3bet vs utg and btn).
also, sb's range for me is closer to 3/5 opener's range.

Last edited by / / ///AutoZone; 06-11-2018 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:11 AM   #18
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

There really no assumption when it comes to what bots think is GTO. There is a CC range in SB unless you force BB to have only a fold or cap and no CC. From this we can deduct that it not because we are afraid of Btn open but it BB we have to watch out for. Just because BB is losing EV by not capping doesn't mean SB should follow suit. Like I said if you follow through the chain of GTO action you realize bit by bit the fix is that Btn should open tight follow by SB having a 3b/cc range and BB should have a Cap/cc.
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:31 PM   #19
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

I understand. A bot sb should have cc and 3b range. --> bot sb 3b% is ~50% of openers range, and bot sb cc% is ~20-25%.

But, a typical human in the sb will only 3b/fold. So, it's better to assume that human sb 3b% is ~65% of openers range.

Does that make sense? Would you agree?
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Old 06-11-2018, 01:26 PM   #20
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonkeyOnTilt View Post
. Super loose, also pretty aggro donator calls BB as does initial raiser.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJuan View Post
Solve this from pre flop by asking yourself what btn open and sb 3b then you figure out what BB is cold calling. Usually the answer is 3b around half combos wise to whoever open. Then BB is probably most likely not playing correctly by merging whole range into CC or fold and not 4b/CC range. From there....
Don, thats not how to solve this pre-flop for this specific situation. Now, if you are talking generally or in theory, sure, but if you are talking about this specific spot for this hand in question then surely not.

Its live poker and buttons opening range and sb 3 bet% has little to do with bb calling range here.

There are a host of other factors that are far more important for determining BB cold calling range. Is he stuck, has he borrowed, did he lose a sports bet, does he have to leave in half an hour....etc

The bb is a massive donator, obviously he's not playing correctly by merging whole range into CC or fold and not 4b/CC range. His range is either (1) hands not good enough to 4 bet or (2) hands not good enough to 4 bet - top y%.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:29 PM   #21
DonJuan
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

Style wish I prefer to stick to as best mix strategy as I can. I don't have to worry about what my opponent does. Pre flop or flop any action they take that not GTO is leaking in each decision tree. Maybe in a different structure game like nl or pot limit that I can exploit the bet size.
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Old 06-11-2018, 10:35 PM   #22
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

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Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
I understand. A bot sb should have cc and 3b range. --> bot sb 3b% is ~50% of openers range, and bot sb cc% is ~20-25%.

But, a typical human in the sb will only 3b/fold. So, it's better to assume that human sb 3b% is ~65% of openers range.

Does that make sense? Would you agree?
% wise is nice number but I would never would use that to determine exact. For example since it a mix strategy ex. A5o 3b X/CC X do you know the exact numbers? There are hands that are always CC. Another example for a 4 month period My 3b in BB vs Btn/sb huhu was wrong and the the difference between mine and what was GTO was only 1.5% but it was vastly different and I was leaking hardcore against regs and if it weren't a head up match a tough reg I wouldn't had to recheck strategy.
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Old 06-12-2018, 02:51 PM   #23
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

FWIW I am pretty sure that the cap in this game is five bets and not four. OP can confirm.
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Old 06-12-2018, 07:27 PM   #24
DonkeyOnTilt
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

It is a five bet cap.
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Old 06-15-2018, 04:36 AM   #25
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Re: Tough spot vs. super wide ranges on river

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Originally Posted by DonJuan View Post
% wise is nice number but I would never would use that to determine exact. For example since it a mix strategy ex. A5o 3b X/CC X do you know the exact numbers? There are hands that are always CC. Another example for a 4 month period My 3b in BB vs Btn/sb huhu was wrong and the the difference between mine and what was GTO was only 1.5% but it was vastly different and I was leaking hardcore against regs and if it weren't a head up match a tough reg I wouldn't had to recheck strategy.
Thanks for this.

I always figured mega experts like you, OnTheRail15, Unguarded, BicycleKick, and Schneids had the dream machine in their brain from studying the game and playing LHE so often.

Great to know a mix strategy can be attempted to be achieved to the fullest sans not knowing what % of mix strategy it should be exactly.
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