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Theory of Chasing Theory of Chasing

08-12-2021 , 09:50 AM
In a couple of Matt Hawrilenko video's he references the Theory of Chasing. I did a quick on-line search for articles - nothing came up. Can anyone point me to articles about the Theory?

Thanks!
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08-18-2021 , 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfp
In a couple of Matt Hawrilenko video's he references the Theory of Chasing. I did a quick on-line search for articles - nothing came up. Can anyone point me to articles about the Theory?

Thanks!
I would guess he's being facetious, but I don't know for sure. Do you have a link to the video/situation in question?
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08-18-2021 , 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfp
In a couple of Matt Hawrilenko video's he references the Theory of Chasing. I did a quick on-line search for articles - nothing came up. Can anyone point me to articles about the Theory?

Thanks!
Probably just another way of saying pot odds.
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08-19-2021 , 08:26 AM
I found it in the 2p2 archives and walked away from it and now can't figure out what google search found it.

Gist is that we should always maintain ability to have the nuts on the river. Might be theoretically true but practically useless without knowledge of the whole game tree. But better minds than mine seem to think it's important so...

If one cared to search RGP for fundamental and theory/theorem and chasing and Paul and Pudaite, you might have some luck.
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08-19-2021 , 09:02 AM
And I found again what I found before:

https://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/jun98_main.html

Quote:
Colloquial rendering: If you are drawing to the nuts, then no matter how long the odds are, you should sometimes play your hand.

Precise formulation: Assume that you and and your opponents have sufficiently large stacks. Let N* be the condition that you hold the nuts on the river. Let S = {s} be the set of all possible sequences of actions by you and your opponents prior to the river. Let X characterize the sequences in which you wind up contesting the river heads up with the possibility of N*, i.e., if you make it to the river with one opponent and it is logically possible that you hold a hand that your opponent cannot beat, then X(s) = 1 ; otherwise X(s) = 0.

Then if you play with a strategy such that there exists s*, a sequence of actions such that Prob[s*] > 0 and X(s*) = 1, but Prob[N*|s*] = 0, your strategy is sub-optimal. In words, if your strategy is responsible for eliminating the possibility that you hold the nuts heads up on the river, then you are not employing an optimal strategy.

Illustration.

Suppose you hold 3c2c in the big blind. Everyone folds to the small blind, who raises. You call. The flop comes AdTd9c. You have the lowest ranking hand in this situation, but you can make the nuts if a 4 and 5 hit without making a flush possible. According to the Fundamental Theorem of Chasing, if your opponent bets, you shouldn't always fold.

In fact, the Fundamental Theorem of Chasing says more than this. If in this situation there are some hands with which you'd raise, and other hands with which you'd call, then you should play a mixed strategy with 3c2c -- sometimes call, sometimes raise. Also, if your opponent checks and there are hands you would bet, you should sometimes bet 3c2c. If you get check-raised, and there are hands with which you would then re-raise, you should sometimes reraise with 3c2c. Etc.

Now suppose a 5h falls on the turn. You may have only 3 or 4 outs and the pot contains just 3 big bets. Yet if your opponent bets, then according to the Fundamental Theorem of Chasing, you should sometimes call and sometimes raise with 3c2c, since there are other hands you'd play that way in this situation.

Motivation for the Fundamental Theorem of Chasing.

In order to play optimally, you must maintain the threat of holding the nuts on the river. You need this threat in order to make your bluffs, raise-bluffs, re-raise bluffs, etc., credible.

Proof of the Fundamental Theorem of Chasing.

If your opponent doesn't find these threats credible, you will be able to achieve an aggregate expected profit from playing the potential nuts because on those rare occasions you hit your hand, your opponent won't stop raising with what he believes must be the best hand.

Here we see the necessity for the assumptions of sufficiently large stacks and heads up play on the river: with a short stack, your opponent will stop raising when he runs out of chips; with multi-way play, there is a limit to the number of raises. In either case, you may not get paid off enough to make a long shot draw to the nuts profitable.

What's sloppy about the "colloquial rendering" of the Fundamental Theorem of Chasing?

The proof demonstrates that optimal play never eliminates the probability that you will hold the nuts on the river. This is not the same thing as saying that any time you have a draw to the nuts, you should (at least sometimes) play the hand. This is because there can be more than one hand you could hold that can draw to the same nuts. For example, if we substitute 3s2s for 3c2c in the illustration above, it may be correct to always fold 3s2s, since it's dominated in expectation by 3c2c (which also has a back door flush draw).

Also, the colloquial rendering doesn't mention the assumptions of heads up play and sufficiently large stacks. And it lacks the full scope of the precise formulation -- as noted in the illustration, not only should you play the hand, you should mix your play with the hand so that it appears in every possible sequence of actions arising from optimal play on your part.

Finally, consider five card stud. Because the river is dealt face up, it's possible no matter what your hole card is, you can't beat your opponent! But the precise formulation of the Fundamental Theorem of Chasing is careful to exclude this type of situation.

Implication for different poker games.

The Fundamental Theorem of Chasing reveals some essential differences between different poker games.

In Hold'em, it means that before the flop, you should play any suited hand that can make a nut straight, no matter how expensive it might be, with positive (but perhaps exceedingly small) probability. For example, suppose under the gun raises, the next player re-raises and you hold 52s. Since you wouldn't fold AA or AKs in this situation, you shouldn't always fold 52s. If, for example, you call with AKs and re-re-raise with AA, then you should sometimes call and sometimes re-re-raise with 52s. Thus it is correct to make some very peculiar plays in Hold'em, at least occasionally.

Contrast this with Omaha. In Omaha, there's no need to play any really bad starting hands, because no matter what the nuts might be on the river, you can have those cards plus AA, giving you a hand with plenty of pre-flop equity.

In both Hold'em and Omaha, it's always possible that you might be drawing to the nuts. So, as a corollary to the Fundamental Theorem of Chasing, it's always possible for you to have sufficient implied odds to continue playing no matter how ugly your draw. Unless your opponent holds the nuts, if you play optimally, he has to fear even the most apparently insane bad beats. Restating the corollary: there are no true bad beats in flop games.

But in stud games, there are situations before the river where no hand you might hold could outdraw the best hand your opponent might hold. (This demonstrates the importance of paying attention to up cards.) Thus there are situations where your opponent can reasonably expect you to fold a hand that could draw out on his strong but not best possible hand. And thus there are situations where you can truly put a bad beat on your opponent, in the sense that without question, you had to be playing incorrectly in order to get there.
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08-19-2021 , 10:58 AM
If this were true, wouldn't we expect to see solvers playing more hands at least some percentage of the time? If the percentage that we need to play these hands is so low that the solver essentially rounds it down to zero, does it matter?
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08-19-2021 , 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munga30
I found it in the 2p2 archives and walked away from it and now can't figure out what google search found it.

Gist is that we should always maintain ability to have the nuts on the river. Might be theoretically true but practically useless without knowledge of the whole game tree. But better minds than mine seem to think it's important so...

If one cared to search RGP for fundamental and theory/theorem and chasing and Paul and Pudaite, you might have some luck.
Imho , the importance of the nutz on the river is primarily a NL concept right because of the bet sizes right ?
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08-19-2021 , 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LifeRebooted
If this were true, wouldn't we expect to see solvers playing more hands at least some percentage of the time? If the percentage that we need to play these hands is so low that the solver essentially rounds it down to zero, does it matter?
Nod, its a neat theory but it is almost surely not correct based on what we know now
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08-19-2021 , 08:24 PM
Not even almost, just surely wrong. And you don't need a solver to show it.

"In order to play optimally, you must maintain the threat of holding the nuts on the river."

No you don't.

"You need this threat in order to make your bluffs, raise-bluffs, re-raise bluffs, etc., credible."

You can bet or raise without being able to have the nuts.

Even in a NL game with arbitrarily large stacks, you could make your opponent disincentivized to call two arbitrarily large bets with 32 on this AT9,4 board by either folding arbitrarily frequently enough on a river no flush 5 to a large bet or raise if you have no or too little 32, or by having a very low but sufficient frequency of 32 in your own range to call with only 32.

The payoff of having the nuts on the last betting street against a range that can't beat or tie you in a NL game does not approach infinity as the stack size approaches infinity. The payoff approaches and never exceeds 2*pot, and it's trivial to force an opponent to make F.T.O.P. mistakes that sum to at least ((2pot)/(frequency of making the unexpected nuts)) with large bets when holding very weak hands like 3-high.
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08-20-2021 , 03:07 AM
Since this is the limit section, are you sure he wasn't referring to no limit? Seems much more important to able to threaten the nuts in a deep stack no limit game for obvious reasons
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08-20-2021 , 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munga30
And I found again what I found before:

https://www.twoplustwo.com/digests/jun98_main.html
It reminds of a hand with Laak.
Hilarious

https://youtu.be/5ja-hPoIrsU

But yeah, NL .
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10-03-2021 , 03:15 AM
I think if we switch 'the nuts' for 'most of villain"s range' then I could get behind this. In that 2c3c example, depending on the actions, it's as likely to get called my worse as tpwk. In this case, the credible threat should be tpwk. Or Just change 'the nuts' to 'effective nuts.' If you get value raised and lose, that means your opponent is spazzing or misread his hand or something. The point is that you're maintaining a credible threat of the better hand, not the absolute best, making all that preflop reasoning obsolete. It is true that in NL, the deeper the stacks, the better the hand has to be, so there could be a point where this is is true.. (100,000,000 bb?) I bet there's a certain stack size where solvers would agree.
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