Great Taj 20-40. Mostly locals who know each other and play aggressive at odd times. I'd watch a hand and be like, "WTF was that?" I think they think of me as straight forward and weak when compared to themselves.

This hand happened after the hand that I post about below, but I thought it was fun. I was not involved and I can't recall the preflop action. There were four players involved in positional order - Mary, Moose, Sonny, and Lam. Flop was 9s5h4s. Mary bet, Moose raised, Sonny and Lam both called, Mary 3-bet and Moose capped. All call. Still 4 players.

Turn Jd. Mary bet, Moose raised, Sonny and Lam call 2 cold and Mary called. Still 4 players.

River 7s, completing the flush. Mary and Moose checked. Sonny bet and Lam called. Mary and Moose folded. Sonny proudly showed his rivered SET, and Lam took it down with 63o. Sonny ripped the sevens and unfortunately got ejected from the Taj for 24 hours.

Here's where I suck and misplay possibly every decision:

UTG is Kenny and is currently playing tighter than most at this table but is certainly one of the players that had me scratching my head when he made it to showdown. CO is Sonny.

UTG limped, Mary limped, I limped with 86s, CO raised and we all called. JT7r. UTG bet, Mary folded, I called, Sonny raised, UTG called and I called. Turn 9 so I hit. UTG bet, I just called, Sonny rasied and UTG 3-bet. I...

play so badly...

Is UTG limping KQ ever?

Normally I'd say:

You're playing for half the pot at best and a chance at being dead here to both Q8s and KQ. Seems like one you can fold to me given that you can see it go 4 bets after you take 2 to the face with 3rd nuts and no redraw. Your description of Sonny shows him calling light, but not raising with air. So his raise on the turn has to be at least a straight right?

fold preflop.

raise turn first time around. there is actually a deceptive amount of value in protecting your hand here in a large pot. K,Q,8, all are really bad cards for you and you probably shouldn't let sonny potentially draw at a higher straight cheap. he probably isn't going over call with many holdings that don't have outs against your hand anyway. you didn't mention if there was a flush draw on the board (which you should have because whether or not someone can have the 8 with a FD is certainly noteworthy) by the turn but the vast majority of unpaired boards do in which case its becomes even more clear that a raise is warranted.

also, if UTG doesn't have a straight he may check the river after you call the turn which lessens the probability you get more than 1 bet per street.

as played, its a fold imo since when you win it'll be a third of the pot a lot and the rest of the time it'll be one half and you have to risk at least 3BB to get to SD. looks like the pot is ~9sb pre + 6sb flop + 18sb turn if you call (assuming you won't be capped which isn't the case). assuming the optimistic case of 1 bet going in on the river 3 ways you are risking 3BB to get back 19.5/3BB or 19.5/2BB (the 3BB you are risking is included in that figure). i think against most live players usually you'll have to hit a Q to have a chance at counterfeiting Q8 for half the pot. add in all the times it gets capped and it think its hard to justify a call.

it would be nice to known the players in question on this one.

TBH Kenny would usually limp with KQo and never limp with 88 utg, so I think ur f'd. Sonny prob has Q8s or JT. (Yes he would raise the turn with top two). On a side note I would refrain from using players names in posts. Bad form and sometimes these players hear their names posted on this forum and wonder whats 2+2.com? The player descriptions did however help with replying to your post.

Don't even think about playing this hand preflop in early position in such an agressive game. Probably shouldn't even have called on the flop.

Kenny is horrible preflop ( in the passive kind of way) but not sprewy at all postflop. He is so MUBSy that his turn 3 bet is always the nuts and nothing else.

P.S WOW!!! Thread is featuring fake BK and real Grumpy?

Fold on the flop. There is very little upside when you hit. Your hand is not disguised because only one of your cards contributes to the straight. You can't raise for value. There are bigger straights out there. You may be chopping. Not to mention you don't close the action.

I don't mind the pre-flop call too much especially if you are HJ.

As played I fold the turn (the second time around).

During the hand, I felt the same way about Kenny's turn play and I folded. He bet the river blank, Sonny called and Kenny showed down J8 so we would have chopped. Sonny had KK (overpair/gutshot).

It's clear (now) that Kenny knows that Sonny doesn't need a big hand to raise the turn, and he therefore can confidently 3-bet without the nuts here. It felt so much like a fold on the turn, but then I felt so left out during the chip stacking part of this hand.

I think so, yes.
At least.

Fold on flop, but I'm tight. Avoiding marginal spots in the first place leads to less spots where you're forced into a bad play (folding the best straight, or staying in with the worst). With 86s you want to hit the flop a little harder than that IMO to stay in.

grunching...

I'd fold pre-flop, and I'd fold on the flop the first time around. 86 on a TJ7 board is a crappy place to draw to a gut-shot - it's a one-card straight so it's more obvious, it makes KQ a better straight, any K is going to have outs against you, etc... The biggest reason to fold, though, is that you aren't closing the action and the PFR is behind you - you will very often pay 2 bets here and you aren't getting anywhere near the odds you need for that.

As played, I'd just raise the turn. The pot is huge and your hand is vulnerable but often best - just get the money in.

Korean Kenny, always looks half asleep? IMO he's decently spewy postflop.

yeah you can't call for that guthot when it also completes 2 other better str8s that are both well within your opp's ranges.

as played i fold fwiw with your tight read

Fold pre in aggro game, fold flop, raise turn first time around, as played fold to turn 3bet calling two cold.