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September LC Thread September LC Thread

09-19-2013 , 04:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by armor32
Kind of funny 5/10 NL spot. Main villain (BB) is super LAGgy action player, not a complete idiot and tries to think, but quite bad overall; he's very rich and is there for fun. He just won a couple big pots and has me covered, I play 4K.
6 way limped pot ($60), I am with KsJh in HJ and flop a nice Qd9cTd.
MP first to bet like 55, I raise to 135, BB and MP call.
Turn is a 8s, now BB leads out $500, MP quickly folds. I hesitate for a split second, BB looks at me and says "do you want me to help you", I say "yes, please" and he flushes a Jc.
How do we make the most money now? I think he views me as a TAG.
Maybe results oriented, but from this player description I would not want him showing me a card and I would just shove and hope he has what he showed you. He pretty obviously has a Jack, you know that and the only thing that has happened now is he knows for sure that you know that. I would still probably just shove, but I would have much rather not had him show the card and show under those circumstances. I mean what do you think he is gonna do when he asks you that, show you a Q? Either he shows nothing or shows a Jack and its harder to get the overbet called once he shows you.
09-19-2013 , 05:37 AM
Anybody subscribed to Bart Hanson's Seat Open podcasts? Worth it? I've made it through all the free Deuce Plays and half of the Cash Plays, and I'm looking for some new content.
09-19-2013 , 06:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by armor32
I popped to 1.5 and he folded However ridiculous it may sound, but his card showing drama actually helped him to lose the minimum... Really weird.
you make it sound accidental.... my thinking for calling was there was a decent chance he's "betting for information". it's exactly the kind of fundamentally bad, but sometimes effective street-hustler tactics you see from bad thinking lags. also such players enjoy an extra thrill (beyond the norm) from owning ppl, both by bluffing or making "crazy" laydowns.

everyone who wanted to raise is assuming that getting his whole stack (or a big part of it) when he has a naked jack is a possibility. but i don't think someone trying to play good (even if they are bad) shows the card and then stacks off anyway. but i dont play a ton of NL so maybe i'm not optimistic enough...
09-19-2013 , 07:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaming_mouse
you make it sound accidental.... my thinking for calling was there was a decent chance he's "betting for information". it's exactly the kind of fundamentally bad, but sometimes effective street-hustler tactics you see from bad thinking lags. also such players enjoy an extra thrill (beyond the norm) from owning ppl, both by bluffing or making "crazy" laydowns.

everyone who wanted to raise is assuming that getting his whole stack (or a big part of it) when he has a naked jack is a possibility. but i don't think someone trying to play good (even if they are bad) shows the card and then stacks off anyway. but i dont play a ton of NL so maybe i'm not optimistic enough...
I think it is pretty hard to put all the pieces of this together in game, but what you are saying is correct. When a guy shows he is trying to say he is happy with the pot size and is afraid to get sucked out on. That fear implies that he doesn't really want to play an 8k pot so we shouldn't be all that surprised that he will find a fold if we raise.

@ggbman: what's up man, how you been? You (and others) realize what a massive overbet it is to shove the turn? I think that would be a pretty big mistake since we can't really balance that with bluffs and even fish just shrug fold naked Jx here for dear of being totally humiliated when they call.

The more we dissect this spot the more clear it becomes to just call. I think my OP is the best line (yay me!)
09-19-2013 , 08:44 AM
BTW, ggbman, if he has not shown us a card and bets we really don't want to raise/call it off or shove since getting freerolled this deep is a disaster.
09-19-2013 , 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by surf doc
BTW, ggbman, if he has not shown us a card and bets we really don't want to raise/call it off or shove since getting freerolled this deep is a disaster.
The board was a complete rainbow so I'm not sure why everyone is talking about being freerolled.
09-19-2013 , 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chube
The board was a complete rainbow so I'm not sure why everyone is talking about being freerolled.
Because there was a turn card that changed the texture and some guy donked full pot?
09-19-2013 , 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chube
The board was a complete rainbow
Not unless you're using "rainbow" in a nonstandard context.
09-19-2013 , 12:31 PM
I feel like I'm the only person that actually read the cards correctly. I even re-posted it with suit symbols so that it would be more obvious.
09-19-2013 , 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R
I feel like I'm the only person that actually read the cards correctly. I even re-posted it with suit symbols so that it would be more obvious.
I read the cards correctly too. But that's probably because we're psychically linked because we're twins.
09-19-2013 , 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian
I read the cards correctly too. But that's probably because we're psychically linked because we're twins.
I actually have a twin.
09-19-2013 , 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggbman1
Maybe results oriented, but from this player description I would not want him showing me a card
Like I said, he didn't really expect to hear any answer from me (to his question if I need help) - he was already flushing the card just a split second after his question, so my "yes please" answer is quite irrelevant - he would still show if I said "no thanks". And also, I didn't have a clue that by "do you need help" he actually meant "I will show you what I've got"... Next time I'll know.
09-19-2013 , 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R
I actually have a twin.
Seriously? Does he/she play poker?
09-19-2013 , 05:30 PM
I am not sure why we are not going to allow someone to give us information. It is one thing where we are angling by asking or trying to chat own someone and quite another to just be friendly. I think Armor handled it well. Bart and Limon talk about this a lot and report being so friendly that sometimes when they are tanking with a second best hand, the villain will just show them "they got it" and let them off the hook. If your professionalism gets you this courtesy on occasion, then you deserve the money it saves you. I know this specific situation is different and I argued about this last night with HOWMANY so I suspect a few of you will disagree.
09-19-2013 , 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chube
The board was a complete rainbow so I'm not sure why everyone is talking about being freerolled.
Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by armor32
Kind of funny 5/10 NL spot. Main villain (BB) is super LAGgy action player, not a complete idiot and tries to think, but quite bad overall; he's very rich and is there for fun. He just won a couple big pots and has me covered, I play 4K.
6 way limped pot ($60), I am with KsJh in HJ and flop a nice Qd9cTd.
MP first to bet like 55, I raise to 135, BB and MP call.
Turn is a 8s, now BB leads out $500, MP quickly folds. I hesitate for a split second, BB looks at me and says "do you want me to help you", I say "yes, please" and he flushes a Jc.
How do we make the most money now? I think he views me as a TAG.
Board is Q9T 8. There are two diamonds on the board.

Before the villain flashes the J, we might have been freerolled, but once they flash that card, we have the immortal nuts. The worst that can happen to us is that a king falls on the river and we chop.
09-19-2013 , 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R
I feel like I'm the only person that actually read the cards correctly. I even re-posted it with suit symbols so that it would be more obvious.
You may feel that way, but you aren't.
09-19-2013 , 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick
Really?



Board is Q9T 8. There are two diamonds on the board.

Before the villain flashes the J, we might have been freerolled, but once they flash that card, we have the immortal nuts. The worst that can happen to us is that a king falls on the river and we chop.
AJ?
09-19-2013 , 05:56 PM
i was definitely thinking that was an 8 this whole time, but wacky makes a good point.
09-19-2013 , 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by surf doc
I am not sure why we are not going to allow someone to give us information. It is one thing where we are angling by asking or trying to chat own someone and quite another to just be friendly. I think Armor handled it well. Bart and Limon talk about this a lot and report being so friendly that sometimes when they are tanking with a second best hand, the villain will just show them "they got it" and let them off the hook. If your professionalism gets you this courtesy on occasion, then you deserve the money it saves you. I know this specific situation is different and I argued about this last night with HOWMANY so I suspect a few of you will disagree.
I'm just saying obviously armor in concerned with extracting max value. This guys hand is almost certainly something like JT or QJ or something. I am saying when he bets the turn its going to be harder to get an overbet shove called after he has shown the jack. Armor says he would be shown anyway but I'm just saying I would try not to get show the hand in this spot.

I have nothing against taking the info when someone wants to help you out but I think you lose value in this spot bc he will have jx more than kjdd and he'll think about calling a lot harder after he has shown you the jack and you shove. As played I still just just shove.
09-19-2013 , 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by surf doc
I think it is pretty hard to put all the pieces of this together in game, but what you are saying is correct. When a guy shows he is trying to say he is happy with the pot size and is afraid to get sucked out on. That fear implies that he doesn't really want to play an 8k pot so we shouldn't be all that surprised that he will find a fold if we raise.

@ggbman: what's up man, how you been? You (and others) realize what a massive overbet it is to shove the turn? I think that would be a pretty big mistake since we can't really balance that with bluffs and even fish just shrug fold naked Jx here for dear of being totally humiliated when they call.

The more we dissect this spot the more clear it becomes to just call. I think my OP is the best line (yay me!)
Surf, I'm great! how's everything with you? My NL game is super rusty, but given the description of this guy (wealthy nice guy who splashes around) I'm not really gonna worry about balancing and I'm just hoping he brain farts and puts in a ton of money. I know it would be a huge overbet, like 2x pot or so. Still I think he will call a pretty decent amount. Getting free rolled sucks but we have to raise the turn this deep. Between the board pairing and flush coming in there are too many cards to kill our action. Again I am very rusty right now at nl, that's just my guy from this player description
09-19-2013 , 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by surf doc
I know this specific situation is different and I argued about this last night with HOWMANY so I suspect a few of you will disagree.
How is it different, not sure I understand ? Like, in a sense that he was trying to help himself rather than he was really trying to "help" me ?

Last edited by armor32; 09-19-2013 at 06:57 PM.
09-19-2013 , 07:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaming_mouse
i was definitely thinking that was an 8 this whole time, but wacky makes a good point.
Yeah, except he would have popped AJ preflop most of the time, so I wasn't terribly worried about it, even though it did contribute to my decision to raise OTT.
09-19-2013 , 07:04 PM
pretty sure I know the villain (havent played in SD in 18 months but this is a very accurate description of a certain regular) and I would show my jack and flat. Then bet 800 when he checks river. MINDGAMES.

Last edited by Clayton; 09-19-2013 at 07:10 PM.
09-19-2013 , 08:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by armor32
Yeah, except he would have popped AJ preflop most of the time, so I wasn't terribly worried about it, even though it did contribute to my decision to raise OTT.
Although the actual board makes it closer, I still like calling the turn because I believe he's intending to fold to a raise a lot.
09-19-2013 , 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggbman1
Surf, I'm great! how's everything with you? My NL game is super rusty, but given the description of this guy (wealthy nice guy who splashes around) I'm not really gonna worry about balancing and I'm just hoping he brain farts and puts in a ton of money. I know it would be a huge overbet, like 2x pot or so. Still I think he will call a pretty decent amount. Getting free rolled sucks but we have to raise the turn this deep. Between the board pairing and flush coming in there are too many cards to kill our action. Again I am very rusty right now at nl, that's just my guy from this player description
I am doing well, ty. I haven't played a serious limit session in more than 5 years and the transition to full time NL has been great.

I feel like my ability to communicate properly may be off. Shoving after he shows you that card is just bad. As far as him showing, I think there is some value to knowing we can't be freerolled and I also think that he has KJ more often than you think with this line. Knowing his exact hand lets us put him in a world of hurt on so many rivers and we still get really good value on bad rivers since the pot is so huge. I guess the point is that even the weaker players live (the games have changed some) find a way out of putting in 400bb and praying for a chop.

      
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