UTG is a bit laggy/ C bets 100% flops/ Bets the turn often but not always.

UTG raises...probably top 12% ish, one lag and one loose passive call in MP, folded to me in HJ. I have Ac8c. The two players behind me are pretty loose. I decide to just call, everybody else calls except the SB. 7 to the flop.

As8hQh...UTG bets, both mp players call.....Would you raise it up now or wait till the turn?

Please, please raise now

Really easy raise

Raise now.

I'm curious, are you hoping for a brick on the turn so you can make your hand look like a bluff?

Uh. Now.


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Raise now!

I did raise.

I'm being results oriented with this thread. A guy behind me called the flop with KK's and sucked out on the river in a monster pot. Had I waited for the turn I probably win. I remember spots where it's best to wait till the turn with two pair. I agree this is not one of them.

Does anybody have a good example of when waiting for the turn in a MW pot IP makes sense with two pair?

Never

I like turn raise here. your equity drastically increases if this board bricks.

but like, is utg really cbetting 100% of the time here? into the whole table? lol at that and lol at even thinking you can be confident in that read.

Do you hate money? Raise now.

Here I think you have to raise the flop, partially because worse hands like AK AJ Q8 and flushdraw might continue to give action.

I agree! plus I wanna get values from any weaker peels.

She may check some boards that are terrible for her like a monotone board but she seemed to bet close to 100%. I think on this board she bets 100%.

I think raising now is probably best but I don't think waiting is awful. I felt like one of the three players in front of me would bet the turn. A Queen hitting would suck. Getting in a raise on the turn could save me the pot.

No one is call/folding so least three players are going to call your raise. That's a lot of certain EV that you are going to risk because you're worried about 3 cards (maybe two because with so many callers someone likely has a Queen, and you do want them to call). Also when you raise the flop you're going to be giving 6 to 1 odds. It's not as if it was raised preflop and it's going to be 8.5 to 1 and everyone will be correctly priced in anyways.

General comment: I've crunched numbers on some of these hand protection scenarios before and they tended to have only a very narrow range of equity change to opportunity cost of bets. I'm not totally convinced that on the fly we can have a good enough sense of situations when we are in that narrow range.

It was raised pre flop.

My answer: Raise now vs. turn depends on opponent tendencies

My reason: It's close, andI could make a case either way at game speed.

My input: your raise forced KK to make a reasonably big FTOP error. KK is 20+/1 to bink a K on the turn, and give him maybe two outs for runner-runner flush if he even has that. If he DOESN'T have the K of trump, his flop coldcall is extra gross.

My TL;DR: It's close, shrug, who cares if you raise now or later. Don't be results-oriented.

I agree. KK taking two to the face on an ace high flop with that many players is a huge donation. Thank that guy for his service.

Not at all close, raise.

i would raise anything that had more than my fair share of equity here, including two pair. if i lose w/e next hand.

Call flop raise turn if you know utg will bet all turns with no heart.
You can get 4 big bets from the calling stations stuck in between vs 2 if you raise flop
3 or 4 bet if you are raised from behind on flop

I think in the exact spot of this hand but if you held Q8s instead of A8s (nevermind you shouldn’t see the flop, its not a big deal) waiting might be better.

There are multiple players yet to act? Raise.

If you close the action, I see merit in calling. K-q-j-10-9 or any heart will be scary for your hand.

23 card are bad. 24 are good.

just raise. You’re almost never facing the field with two.