Visited Canterbury Park, as I do from time to time.... This hand is from the 20-40 limit game against aggressive villains; we are 8 handed.........

I have TT in the Small Blind
Folds to the CO who raises, the Button 3-bets and I 4-bet, CO and Button call.
Flop is 465
I bet, CO raises, Button folds, I 3-bet, CO 4-bets, I call.
At this point I think there is a decent chance CO is simply trying to take the lead in position and/or take down the pot right there.
Turn is 4
I check call.
River is a 2
I check call.

Thoughts? Missed opportunities?

I don’t really understand your thought process that he is “takign the lead and trying to win the hand there”. You mean your read is that he would play overcards this way?

What hands do you put him on with this line and how are you doing against them? Does he know it isn’t a 4 bet cap?

I just call pre (and call with my whole range here).

I think you can just call down once villain raises the flop - unless he is playing overs aggressively (which he should not be doing given the fact that two players 3bet and 4bet behind him), you only beat 77-99. Turn and river are fine as played.

I like the cap pre. The flop lead is interesting, though I'd check raise with the intention of capping and leading the turn. After he 4 bets the flop you could consider leading the turn with the intention of calling down if raised.

This was my thinking too. Capping PF and putting more aggressive action in after the flop raise seems bad absent some super special read.

asmitty, hf, why flat SB? I understand that this is the new hotness but I'm going to need some real selling on this.

As played, call flop. Even against a free card play from like K7, we have just 56% equity and no redraw whatsoever, and the raiser should be respecting our range here. Shoveling is spew.

As played, where we are in our range says we should probably fold sometimes but in practice I just pay off like a slot machine.

Think about which hands do you 4 bet vs which hands do you call. He's saying "call all off the hands I play", which is a logical way to build a range. You could also say "I 4 bet everything I play", which also seems fine. The first version allows you to play a few more hands, while the 2nd version lets you win some more pots with aggression (if that's even possible in this game).



The hardest sell is the version where you both call some hands and 4 bet others. How do you have enough hands in each set to not just tell people what you have. This is worse OOP, because they get a read on your hand when you call or 4 bet. They also get a free look on every street when you act first. I assume you SB range vs a 3 bet is small enough that this is a real concern. Guessing that some people can pull this off, but the downside is that you're giving away a ton of information for a small gain.

No I understand that range construction. I'm just not sure if I agree with it from the SB. We give the BB better prices to continue, we never face a hand like A7o from the PFR with a decision to call or fold preflop. This just doesn't attack the dead $ well, and really, how many extra hands do we want to be playing from the SB anyway? Smart people will get a read that we have a strong hand preflop anyway just from the fact that we continue, except now maybe we can have ATs or 77.

I think this could be a good strategy from the SB, but I'd much rather have call 3 cold ranges in position than call 2.5 cold out of position.

What does your range look like in this spot. What hands do you cold call?

The null set.

Oh, then I'm not arguing with you about "I 4 bet everything I play". Seems totally fine. I actually played around with profitable playing ranges, and they were wider than I thought.

I'd be interested. However we're getting 3:1 on a call and allowing the BB the maximum opportunity to continue. And getting dead $ out means we probably don't even need 33.3% equity to cap. Probably less.

So we'd probably want to consider cold calling if we have hands between 28%-32% that we want to play. Doesn't seem to be that wide of a range. Maybe I'm incorrect?

Is it really "the new hotness" if people have been advocating it for something on the order of a decade?

"advocating for it" and "non-fish actually doing it" are two different things .

I like to think that I'm not a fish.

Please remember in these discussions that we have a 5-bet cap in MN.

I don't think it's quite spew to 3-bet this flop then call down, but I do think it's better to just call and let villain think he's getting 3 streets of value if he has only one pair.

I will say this-- if you are GOING to do the call your entire range thing (which I don't do), this (CO raise Button 3-bet) is the time to do it. The people who advocate it in other threads with UTG raise and UTG+1 3-bet are, in my opinion, nuts, because the ranges are so much narrower.

Yeah - my question about the CO was whether or not he realized it was a 5 bet cap. If he did and chose not to cap, that tell me you a lot about his holding (read dependent of xourse).

Imo- not 4 betting sucks. Even more in a 5 bet cap venue. I think it’s a lesser ev strat in the big blind and an awful sb strat. (Opionion, not fact)

The rest of the hand is good. If it was a tough player not a 20/40 dork I might not always 3 that flop, and just go into check call mode.

i completely agree with this. is he trying to 4 bet bluff the flop in a limit hold em game? ok good luck. or is he 4 betting for a free card? congrats and 80 dollar free card i think there was enough action that went in with your hand and should just check call turn and river as you did

I think one reason to 3-bet the flop here is that AA/KK might not raise you on the flop and QQ-JJ might call down from your 3-bet, allowing you to get full value from 99-77 Or overcards that raised the flop.

There are very few situations where this strategy correct. A live 20/40 game is very unlikely to be one of them.

It does.

Calling one's entire range from the SB in a LHE game is almost always incorrect, and likely never correct in a live 20/40 lhe game. (There are circumstances where it is indeed correct, but those circumstances are very rare.)

People on these forums have been advocating for and misapplying the idea of "balance" from the SB for a decade. It's not new "hotness", it's old "thinking I'm fancy when I'm really just ****ing up."

I wasn’t agreeing with calling 100% PF - I was agreeing with just calling down after the flop raise