Curious on what people think about pre-flop for this spot. Looking for input before I go out and spend money on a book to help correct any potential leaks I may have in this spot and similar.

Solid pro opens UTG+2, but he probably opens a little wider than standard here. Hijack and cutoff cold call (no reads except they cold called here) and the sb calls (also no reads)... we have JJ in the big blind?

3b


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I'm confused

This is a clear 3-bet with JJ in a 5 way pot pre. You have a huge equity advantage as your hand is way ahead of at least 3/4 other hands in the pot.

3bet. If your broader question is "should I have a 3betting range in this spot," the answer is yes - it's a 5-way pot and you have a very strong hand.

Well problem with the pro is that he might not cbet 100% the flop , making it difficult to put in a c/r on flop .

Your hand as enough value to sacrifice your good relative position .

Pretty clear 3b to my eyes.

Dead Money, What is your thinking here as to why a call would make sense?

I'll try to run some numbers later to quantify the EV difference between calling and c/r'ing favorable boards vs raising. My gut feeling is I think it's pretty close but I could be wrong. I think if the coldcallers are wide and passive postflop you should be pushing your equity edge and weclome a cap from UTG+2.

JLot I think the issue might be unless you're 3'betting AK from the BB here which I assume OP isn't and similar point of contention, you're turning your hand faceup. I have a big overpair. I guess villains are less likely to overplay their hands here than say just UTG+2 raising. Calling gives OP option of just folding when an Ace or two overs come, checking raising when a Jack or under cards flop, and calling on other textures.

Of course you should 3b AK.


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Agree with this. I really can't understand why we would want to do anything but pump value. This is Fixed Limit, if he has QQ+ and we get coolered, oh well. If an ace flops, oh well.

Ranges are wide and weak. Let's make the pot bigger with a good hand and be prepared to drag a large one if a J flops, or the flop is 9 high.

Edit: @dadjoey, Given reads, I'd be three betting a whole lot more than TT+/AK here.

I have no idea. Mason told me if I think 3 betting is correct I need to buy his book.

It's possible what Mason is getting at (I wouldn't know because I've not read HPFAP) is that we can potentially try to xr a late position bet and maximize our chance of winning the pot, versus jamming and having everyone continue (as it's obviously advantageous for us, OOP, to have as few players as possible contesting the pot).

That being said, I think this is incorrect, since we can pump $ into the pot w/ great equity immediately, and it's not like we'll get the chance to "protect our hand" often anyway.

Mason's books definitely take a different preflop perspective than the current typical 2+2 wisdom with regard to maximizing preflop potsize with a slight equity advantage vs. keeping the postflop pot smaller and not having initiative, which can give playability advantages as well as cause opponents to make mistakes drawing to a smaller pot.
Barry Tannenbaum took a similar perspective, including suggesting just calling preflop in a similar spot with QQ.


I think both perspectives have some validity, and it is often tough to choose which is best, but personally as I am variance-averse by nature I tend to go the more conservative route. However, I would always 3-bet AK or QQ in this spot. JJ would be a borderline case for me, as it seems to be for OP.

I Agee that I think that's his viewpoint and I also agree that I think it's wrong, which is why I wanted to open up discussion on the topic before making a purchase on a book to discuss the topic

I've played the variance averse route of just calling here up until about the last two months where I've upped my aggression factor significantly. I'm having much better results by 3betting in spots like this.

Yeah I texted my friend later about this spot, and there's a lot of issues I have with just flatting the big in this spot. Besides just missing value:

1) We allow UTG to put bets in, only when he either has JJ beat or tons of equity against it postflop, by defaulting to a call and check-flop-heavy strategy.
2) There's no guarantee a flop gets bet in late position when checked to, which is what we really want to happen. Like say we get a good flop: 973tt and we have a BDFD. If it checks around, there's still 12 overcards and 7 additional flush cards that can come, with varying degrees of awkwardness (overcards moreso than flush cards).
3) Back to 973tt, you raise UTG and get 3 calls, BB calls. Flop you check to BTN who bets and BB check raises. A lot of people in 2017 don't fold AK here, or even like KQ, because the pot is big and BB can be doing this w/ any decent one pair hand to "protect". This play isn't foreign anymore and doesn't do nearly as much for us to realize equity as it used to.

So let's give the EP raiser 14.2% of starting hands (slid the Poker Cruncher app slider all the way until A7s shows up), and give some wideish ranges to the cold callers. JJ will show up w/ 30%-35% equity here, so I want to be jamming.

Moreover, people don't fold flops in big pots anymore for single bets, and often times won't for two. We don't exploit that by trying to keep the pot as small as possible w/ our premium hands in order to bait one guy into a trap, we exploit it by making it as expensive as possible for them to chase us down w/ their 87o and 94s and whatever.

An advantage of 3-betting is you get to see what the initial raiser thinks of his hand now.

Also you get to 3b w jacks


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Even if I knew UTG+2 would always bet the flop I would still 3bet preflop. For one thing, the other 3 guys might not necessarily call the flop bet when they will definitely call an additional bet preflop. Secondly, UTG+2 should cap here with a bunch of worse hands (AKo, AQs, TT, and some stuff like T9s/AJs/99/JTs occasionally) which would trap the other 3 guys for a total of 6 additional bets that would not go in if we just call.

Hi DonkeyOnTilt:

Unless you're a little short on bankroll, the idea of being variance adverse should have nothing to do with whether you want to just call or put in a third bet.

Best wishes,
Mason

Hi Smarty:

Here are the first two paragraphs of page page 167 in HPFAP:

Wouldn't you argue that you have a huge equity advantage in this similar situation?

Best wishes,
Mason

Well yes. That's why you should 3bet in that example as well.


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Maximizing expectation is sometimes very different from betting or raising because you have an equity advantage. No one is saying that by reraising you're not making extra money in the long run. But it doesn't mean that you're maximizing your expectation. Put another way, you need to think statistically and not mathematically.

The "Playing In Loose Games Sections" of Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players was originally written eighteen years ago. Yet it seems that some of you are not even aware of the ideas that it contains, and these ideas sometimes lead to some very strange plays such as checking the flop when you hold two aces in your hand, you're in last position, and it's most likely that the aces are the best hand. (See page 171.)

Best wishes,
Mason

I understand the concept in your book. It's just that I don't think it is correct in the situation you describe. Or in this one.


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Is it possible that you are wrong?