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Old 02-20-2019, 09:42 PM   #1
ninefingershuffle
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This popes for you

Everyone thinks I’m a maniac.

People limp.

I raise the button with red Queens.

It goes off 8 ways for two bets.

Flop is 99J with two hearts.

V1 checks early position, v2 business bro on major tilt bets, folds to me, I raise. v1 takes two, v2 bro calls.

Turn is king of hearts.

Check all around.

River 5 of spades. V1 bets, bro folds, I insta call.

Everything but turn seems standard.

Last edited by ninefingershuffle; 02-20-2019 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 02-20-2019, 09:58 PM   #2
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Re: This popes for you

That pope?

Nh.
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Old 02-21-2019, 09:33 AM   #3
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Re: This popes for you

nh
I might bet the turn, but I can agree with every street as played.
If bro calls, do you still call, or is there enough scary out there that you can fold even against a player on major tilt and limpers who perceive you as aggressive and having given up on the turn?
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Old 02-21-2019, 09:49 AM   #4
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Re: This popes for you

I think it's fine. I kind of wonder about what hands we're betting for value on the flop and turn if we're not betting red queens on the turn, but that Kh is the worst.
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Old 02-21-2019, 11:48 AM   #5
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Re: This popes for you

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Originally Posted by Sandwich View Post
nh
I might bet the turn, but I can agree with every street as played.
If bro calls, do you still call, or is there enough scary out there that you can fold even against a player on major tilt and limpers who perceive you as aggressive and having given up on the turn?
There wasnít a single river card I was folding for one bet except maybe an ace.
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Old 02-21-2019, 01:34 PM   #6
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Re: This popes for you

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Originally Posted by JLot View Post
I think it's fine. I kind of wonder about what hands we're betting for value on the flop and turn if we're not betting red queens on the turn, but that Kh is the worst.


If youíre wondering about how to balance in this spot, I donít really think it matters. Once the pot is 4+ ways, balance pretty much goes out the window and weíre forced to play our hand face up.

If youíre not thinking about balance and just wondering what hands we bet turn here after raising the flop, Iíd bet AA, KK, JJ, 99, QhTh. Not a ton of combos, but there arenít a ton of combos weíre checking turn either after raising the flop.
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Old 02-21-2019, 02:07 PM   #7
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Re: This popes for you

I think not betting the turn is pretty bad. If they see you as an maniac, you are for sure going to get called down by worse. If someone has a K, you have outs.

Why didn’t you bet the turn?
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Old 02-21-2019, 02:33 PM   #8
ninefingershuffle
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Re: This popes for you

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I think not betting the turn is pretty bad. If they see you as an maniac, you are for sure going to get called down by worse. If someone has a K, you have outs.

Why didnít you bet the turn?
I didnít want to get blown off my equity, I love any ten queen or heart - the only reasonable hands they have have on the flop that Iím still ahead of are jacks
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Old 02-21-2019, 02:53 PM   #9
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Re: This popes for you

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Originally Posted by rodeo View Post
If youíre not thinking about balance and just wondering what hands we bet turn here after raising the flop, Iíd bet AA, KK, JJ, 99, QhTh. Not a ton of combos, but there arenít a ton of combos weíre checking turn either after raising the flop.
Yep, we'd also also have A9, some flushes, and maybe some bluffs like T8s. Agree with your general point around balance being less important in a multi-way pot, but we should still have some semi-bluffs in our range at minimum.
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Old 02-21-2019, 02:57 PM   #10
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This popes for you

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Originally Posted by JLot View Post
Yep, we'd also also have A9, some flushes, and maybe some bluffs like T8s. Agree with your general point around balance being less important in a multi-way pot, but we should still have some semi-bluffs in our range at minimum.


Along with balance going out the window, bluffing goes out the window imo. Thatís what I meant when I said weíre forced to play the hand face up because itís multi-way. What semi-bluffs would you have on this turn after raising pre and raising the flop donk?

Last edited by rodeo; 02-21-2019 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 02-21-2019, 04:47 PM   #11
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Re: This popes for you

I still like to have some bluffs, though the frequency and nature of them are different in a 3 way spot like this turn. On the flop we can raise a number of draws which would make good candidates to continue betting on the turn. An example would be a hand like T8s. I would raise this pre in a large multi-way limp fest pot, raise the flop and bet the turn/river as a bluff unimproved.

If we're never bluffing in a spot like this I don't know why anyone would ever call both our turn and river bets. Sure, they may have outs on the turn but if the 2c comes off on the river they can just fold in complete confidence that they are beat. There are a lot of people who don't pay attention out there, but I think it's good to mix it up a bit, even in multi way pots. Also, if we have a good draw in a 3 or 4 way pot, we get more value from callers so our bluffs are less %bluff vs. %value - if that makes any sense. The more people in a pot the more draws go up in value vs. made hands.
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Old 02-21-2019, 05:50 PM   #12
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Re: This popes for you

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Originally Posted by JLot View Post
I still like to have some bluffs, though the frequency and nature of them are different in a 3 way spot like this turn. On the flop we can raise a number of draws which would make good candidates to continue betting on the turn. An example would be a hand like T8s. I would raise this pre in a large multi-way limp fest pot, raise the flop and bet the turn/river as a bluff unimproved.

If we're never bluffing in a spot like this I don't know why anyone would ever call both our turn and river bets. Sure, they may have outs on the turn but if the 2c comes off on the river they can just fold in complete confidence that they are beat. There are a lot of people who don't pay attention out there, but I think it's good to mix it up a bit, even in multi way pots. Also, if we have a good draw in a 3 or 4 way pot, we get more value from callers so our bluffs are less %bluff vs. %value - if that makes any sense. The more people in a pot the more draws go up in value vs. made hands.

I typed my response and then realized a lot of this stuff you know, so forgive me for pointing out the obvious. But hereís my take,

Since our opponents are often getting a good price to continue in LHE, bluffing frequencies are much lower than in NL. This natural element of LHE is exaggerated once the pot is multi-way, because the likelihood of a bluff succeeding is so low. For example, we canít really ever be bluffing on the flop in a multi-way pot and expect to have immediate success. Our ďbluffsĒ should be high equity draws, in which case, weíre mostly raising for value. In the OP we see the flop 8 ways for two bets. We literally have no shot of a bluff working on the flop.

In the example you give with T8s, I usually limp along with that one and raise T9s. But letís say I raised T8s, Iím not going to be raising the flop with all four combos of T8s because with 3 combos we often only have 6 outs rather than 8 since the heart outs are dirty (occasionally, weíre drawing dead on this board). Of course Iíll raise with Th8h because we often have far more than our fair share of equity (and we canít ever be drawing dead).

We donít need to have bluffs in multi-way pots to insure that opponents will call our value bets. There will be enough draws and second best hands in their ranges for them to call. Also, 99.5% of our opponents arenít paying enough attention to exploit that we arenít bluffing. Besides, on the river, their pot odds are so great that they should call with any chance of winning so we should rarely be bluffing anyway.

Do we know each other?
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Old 02-21-2019, 09:20 PM   #13
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Re: This popes for you

All good points. Let me play around a little bit more with my 3 player sim and get back with some interesting examples we can talk through. Ever get out to the east coast to play?
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Old 02-21-2019, 09:25 PM   #14
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This popes for you

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Originally Posted by JLot View Post
All good points. Let me play around a little bit more with my 3 player sim and get back with some interesting examples we can talk through. Ever get out to the east coast to play?


No. Iíve never played on the East Coast. I thought maybe you were from the East Coast, but out in Vegas right now.

Not sure how relevant 3 way sims will be to 4+ multi-way live pots, but Iím definitely interested in anything you come up with. Forming coalitions is pretty interesting and a concept that is applicable both pre flop and post flop. Looking forward to whatever you have to share.
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Old 02-21-2019, 10:29 PM   #15
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Re: This popes for you

If we could figure out how frequently the sim bluffs in certain 3 way spots it might give us some hints. I'm a long way, and a giant server away, from a full ring game sim. Cool, will do and catch up soon Rodeo.
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Old 02-23-2019, 10:01 AM   #16
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Re: This popes for you

Nh, I like the turn check and would consider it pretty standard given the flop action. We beat 3 combos of non heart T8s, 6 combos of QJ, 12 combos of JT, 12 combos of AJ and lose to all 9x and flushes which make up way more combos of V2s range.
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Old 02-23-2019, 12:28 PM   #17
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Re: This popes for you

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Originally Posted by 6MaxLHE View Post
Nh, I like the turn check and would consider it pretty standard given the flop action. We beat 3 combos of non heart T8s, 6 combos of QJ, 12 combos of JT, 12 combos of AJ and lose to all 9x and flushes which make up way more combos of V2s range.
We also beat complete air which is what both of them had
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Old 02-24-2019, 03:30 PM   #18
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Re: This popes for you

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
We also beat complete air which is what both of them had
That was sort of my point - if they really see you as a maniac they are going to show up with all sorts of hands that you can value bet on the turn
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Old 02-26-2019, 08:17 AM   #19
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Re: This popes for you

Seems you have the equity to bet turn. You were scared of facing 2 cold? That's gotta be super rare.

Also your opponents, esp coldcaller will lead a lot made hands.
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Old 03-02-2019, 05:11 AM   #20
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Re: This popes for you

I would take it as a given that no one folds the turn and if they had a hand that could fold you probably would want them to call anyways so the question mostly breaks down to what equity do you need to bet, and the answer is > 33% and probably >40% considering what i think is a pretty -high likelihood of being raised.

The fact that 8 people saw the flop has major card removal implications. I guess against complete dimwits who can have random undercards this is an easy bet but giving them the smallest bit of credit i'd peg your equity as somewhere around 30-40% which is not enough unless you're almost never getting raised. To not be an equity dog you need them BOTH to have J7,J8 JT, JQ, AJ, T8 or T7 and you've gotta figure people are folding the weaker hands there in early position preflop some fraction of the time unless this is 2/4 limit.

I guess you have to give some weight to the fact that they checked the turn and/or didnt 3bet the flop but i don't think it changes much. It slightly reduces the likelihood of someone having 9x but this is exactly how theyd play it if they had a flush, a straight, a gutshot that paired the king or a full house and even without the 9xs there're about as many as them as there are hands you're ahead of. Most generous estimest would peg your equity at around 50% but that's pretty optimistic and you're still getting raised something like 1/3rd of the time by hands that have you boned.

Last edited by Abbaddabba; 03-02-2019 at 05:20 AM.
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Old 03-04-2019, 10:36 AM   #21
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Re: This popes for you

You kind of can't fold river once you play turn this way. I actually am fine w/ turn check and expect to see expert slowplay a fair amount.
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Old 03-04-2019, 05:13 PM   #22
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Re: This popes for you

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Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
You kind of can't fold river once you play turn this way. I actually am fine w/ turn check and expect to see expert slowplay a fair amount.
Bettor said ďnice callĒ and other guy (flop donker) folded so lord knows wtf they had.
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Old 03-05-2019, 07:03 AM   #23
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Re: This popes for you

I guess you missed out on 2bb. Ya I know results oriented.
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Old 03-05-2019, 10:39 AM   #24
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Re: This popes for you

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I guess you missed out on 2bb. Ya I know results oriented.
? I think I played it right, was just posting results for the fun of it.
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Old 03-09-2019, 09:17 PM   #25
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Re: This popes for you

folding the river is terrible
don't think you're a favorite to win on the turn so check
king is a class freeze card
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