20-40 game just started, we are playing 6 handed at Canterbury Park.

Folded around to Button who raises, SB calls. I call with A7in the BB.

Heads up, flop is JTT

Checks to the Button, who bets. SB folds. I call.

Turn is 2

I check, Button bets, I call.

River is 8

I check, Button bets, I call(??)

Is this just one of those situations where my A high is good enough of the time, so I can't fold, but my hand and the runout is just not conducive to taking the lead or raising to try to win this pot a different way than showing down the better hand?

Thoughts about betting out on the river (representing a weak J perhaps)?

I would just call down. The 8 on the river isn't great but it isn't the worst card in the deck.

I wouldn't donk this river with any value hands so I wouldn't donk as a bluff here. I don't think you are getting enough better hands to fold to turn this hand into a bluff.

Throw in some reads and the plan could change.

I think it is fine against an unknown.

If you raise kq on the flop and raise nut heart draws on the turn this is basically bottom of your range along with other ax hands. You have so many ax hands that folding all can’t be optimal but Unknowns are more likely to be underbluffing and betting with bluffcatchers. Optimal would require calling with somewhere around half to 3/4 of your ax hands but there’s almost no difference between them so even slight changes in perceived tendencies makes them either all calls or all folds. Ie: fast bets more likely to be bluffs therefor always call, thinking and then betting makes bluffs less likely so fold all of them.

Should be 3betting pre though. You’re ahead of both their ranges.

Welcome.

Good post. Definitely agree on 3b pre. Would want to ask why you are raising nut-hearts on turn.

I also like a 3 bet preflop, but as played with no reads I fold the flop.

Folding flop is bad, closing action, given the price, and your hand.

I'd also 3 it pre.

As played I call river absent any reads. A bonus of going to showdown is that you will get an informative read because you want to know what this guy opens on the button with against your bb. In a tight game you want to know that. If he shows you a top 10% hand you can't completely rule out him having a wide range here, but if he has some trash are sure he has a wide range in this spot.

Question for everyone else, how often do you 3-barrel if you are villain here? I think if I'm villain I give up on river because that turn doesn't connect with a flop draws range, but I'm not sure because hero could have busted draws...

When I was last playing (its been a few years) I was reading a lot of strategy saying not to have a 3! range when defending your BB in order to not weaken our flatting range. Is that no longer the prevailing thought? (in regards to how many comments have said to 3!)

Or does that still have merit but the presence of sb changes the dynamic?

A few things
1) SB flatting always changes dynamic. A7s stands to have a plurality of equity 3 ways and we make it more likely that we win the pot by 3 betting. So 3 betting becomes more appealing.
2) Flatting BB 100% is exploitable; a smart BTN who knows you never 3 bet BB can now open wider and balance his opens with a robust check back range. The flat 100% strategy became prevalent mostly in response to the fact that people open too widely and cbet way too much regardless of board texture. But if people are wise to it, not having a 3 bet range leaves money on the table with good hands and reduces fold equity and equity realization for other parts of our range (like if he opens K5o and we flat JTs and the flop is A76, he just gets to win).

This isn't to say we need 3 bet ranges from the BB since a lot of people still make this auto-cbet mistake (and the ones that don't let you know fast because they often drastically under-cbet the flop).

Very interesting. Where would you draw the line on those villains in terms of what percent cbet button steals we should be looking for?

Thanks for the response! I've played three sessions of LHE the last few nights and the cobwebs are starting to clear.

Why 3bet pre when you can check raise or possible check 3 bet any flop you smash against an obvious c bet?

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Fold or c/r the flop as played preflop. C/r'ing looks like fastplaying Tx, Jx, or even just turning faceup the A-hi that you know is good. You would also likely be c/r'ing all straight draws here and you will earn a lot of folds from single pair hands on dangerous looking turns. As played, you allow him the opportunity to earn those folds on those cards as you do mental gymnastics to assign him a hand you are beating. There are no clear decisions coming no matter what cards come out given your holding and this flop, but he doesn't know that so reverse the situation if you have any thoughts that you may have the best hand and c/r. With a c/r and a future loss you have set yourself up to get increased action on paired boards when you do have it and influenced him to perhaps raise your blinds less. There is a middle range of hands slightly ahead of your hand that are going to get to showdown way more often if you are just "keeping him honest" and you are going to end up paying off way too often here as they will have no reason not to bet for value against a guy just c/c'ing down from the BB. If the turn checks through as played it is now a further nightmare as you're not going to be happy c/c'ing on many rivers and you're going to be hard pressed to find a bet profitable in the longrun as he may have checkedback to avoid being c/r'd by Tx.

how is pre even being debated? not 3betting is terrible. now everyone wants to c/r flop? is this poker now? people just value owning each other with ace hi?

Theres a small chance that button acrually has a hand? Now you get 4 bet and have to check fold flop?

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small chance btn actually has a hand?
what we do know is, there's 100% chance that WE have an actual hand.
in any case, disagree about c/f flop if 4bet. but for sake of argument, let's say you do gain enough info in order to make a decision that concrete. seems a lot cheaper than calling multiple streets.

Is it ever right to flat from SB? Shouldn't the decision be to 3-bet or fold?

And if there is a flatting range, doesn't that too easily identify the types of hands SB has?

Seems like the types of hands SB might flat with include suited Broadway combinations too weak to 3-bet with like QJs, QTs, JTs all of which hit the flop.

However since SB folded there is a slight bias for button to actually have those cards.

I understand button should have a very wide raising range, but in a "drop" game and not a "time" game it's a pretty steep price to pay (6$ or 7$) a hand with the weaker ends of the range.

That being said, I would generally give button a pocket pair, any ace, decent kings, queens, jacks, suited connectors and one gappers and unsuited connectors 98 or higher perhaps.

That being said you are ahead of many of those hands but not only are you out of position from the pre-flop raiser, you have two players to beat.

As far as 3-betting from the BB after SB flats that is the eternal debate. One strategy is to only call from BB to disguise your range although this might more apply heads up.

And if you are going to 3-bet from the BB with your better holdings and just call with your more questionable ones that unfortunately bifurcates your range and makes your hand easier to read.

Perhaps a "top and bottom" of the range 3-bet and middle call strategy might cause opponents significant difficulty in putting you on a hand.

So on the hand in question after the obligatory BTN continue and a SB fold, you may or may not have the best hand, but you're out of position and even if you improve there's virtually no implied value.

The pot is laying you 11/5 to check call all streets. I can't see that as being positive EV but maybe I'm too much of a nit.

I understand you're going to get a free showdown on many rivers but you're losing to many aces, any ten, any jack any pocket pair and are beating KQ, K9 and lower value hands villain 3-barrels with.

However, from BTN's perspective if they get a call on the flop, shouldn't they just give up unimproved with their weaker holdings?

If so, you don't rate to be ahead at river too often.

I just fold on the flop. This is not 100-200, it's 20-40.

Lol I fold after flop


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