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Old 03-13-2010, 11:46 PM   #376
Howard Beale
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

I 'spose not.
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Old 03-14-2010, 12:16 AM   #377
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

i wonder how much hair weighs.

i recently got a haircut really short.

last time i got a haircut was in november.

i have really thick and curly hair.

im gonna guess all that weighed 10oz.

too high or too low?
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Old 03-14-2010, 12:52 AM   #378
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

I have reliable second hand information that Neal, of Neal fame, was sitting in front of a few racks in a Garden City 20 game, got mad about some bad beat, and decided he wanted to play every hand face up from then on. And one of the props at the table, a definite goofball, but presumably a guy who likes money, called the floorman and had the floorman force Neal to stop playing all his hands face up.

Having just got there after this happened, I joined the other game, joined the surprisingly short table change list, and as per usual when I got to the top of that list Neal cashed out about 5 racks.
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Old 03-14-2010, 01:04 AM   #379
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

I'm startin' to get a lil worried that I haven't heard back from boc after havin' put him in charge of waitress procurement. If this goes on much longer, I'm gonna have to make HB the DH.
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Old 03-14-2010, 01:25 AM   #380
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

I'm too rusty.
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Old 03-14-2010, 03:50 AM   #381
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by leo doc View Post
I'm startin' to get a lil worried that I haven't heard back from boc after havin' put him in charge of waitress procurement. If this goes on much longer, I'm gonna have to make HB the DH.
i havent heard from boc either. i tried texting him the other day. no response.
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:11 AM   #382
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

Hopefully this is the right thread/forum to post this in. If it is tl; dr, just skip to the bolded part with my questions. I provide the up front info so you can evaluate me as a player. I apologize in advance if any of this sounds overly-arrogant or cocky, but I just want to give you as clear a picture as possible of where I think I stand as a poker player.

I've played NLHE almost exclusively for the last 5 years. I started 8-12 tabling 55 and 109 Party SNGs and during the peak of the poker boom I played and did extremely well 4-8 tabling 1/2, 2/4 and 3/6 6max no-limit online. I, however, had very bad tilt control and playing poker was affecting me big time IRL (I was always a student first and a poker player second... never had, and still don't have, any intentions of going full time pro). I decided to stop playing seriously and have really only played "casually" (my "casually" is still a fairly serious player... but it's only when I want to and I do not depend on the $$ for income).

I have an extremely solid theory foundation in the game... I know it inside and out. I'm a Hold Em' specialist, but I think with good practice I could pick the other games up as well. Poker is very well suited to my "natural skill set" as is the case with many people in my field (I am a law student).

I've come to despise playing poker online. I enjoy playing live, but playing NL live really tilts the **** out of me. It moves too slow (I have attention and focus problems) and the constant hollywooding and grandstanding that goes on frustrates me very much.

I discovered the 10/20 LHE at the Borgata sometime last year. I've never played limit seriously before, but it was not very difficult to adapt to the game. I go to school in the south but make my permanent home in the north, so I play there whenever I'm home on breaks. I've been absolutely crushing the game... just crushing it. And it's not like I've had a super sick run of cards (although my results indicate maybe I have... the biggest downswing I've had is 1k or 50 BBs in one session... and it still wasn't a losing session). I rarely, if ever, feel lost at any spot in the game and honestly feel like it plays itself for me. The regs are (for the most part) all terrible loose passive calling stations who may as well play their cards face up most of the time. I honestly feel like I absolutely dominate that game, and I am very aware (as a long time card player as well as someone grounded in reality and well-versed in statistics) of biases I might be getting from small sample sizes, etc... so I am considering more than results.

I am very seriously considering splitting half my "1L" (first year law student) summer with 6 weeks of an unpaid internship and the rest of the time playing poker professionally live. I enjoy playing live limit very much... the speed of the game suits me well and the limit structure really helps me control my tilt (my biggest leak has always been tilt control). I am a huge ****ing bankroll nit (I've never been busto or even close to it in the 5 years I've been playing), and I table select well.

My questions are the following:

1) Assuming I spend some more time sharpening my LHE skills (actually reading books on it and plugging some leaks and inconsistencies I have), does this sound like a reasonable plan?

2) My sample size is about 100 hours of play so far of absolute domination. A minuscule sample size for sure, but this combined with my evaluation of the game and my play leads me to believe I am one of the best players constantly at the 10/20 tables. Most of the pros (from what I've seen) play 20/40 up and 10/20 is filled mostly with losing regs and tourists. Is it possible I am just fooling myself and running hot as ****? Or is this game really this terribly soft all the time?

3) What type of hourly rate at 10 live is reasonable/usual? If a player was absolutely at the top of the field, what could he expect to make? I feel like 2 BBs an hour is very doable at this game (conservatively). Is this a ridiculous assumption? I honestly don't know.

4) If I indeed am as well-equipped as I think I am for 10/20, how would I fare in the 20/40 game (assuming if/when I get the correct size bankroll)? I sweat it for a bit this week just to see, and it seems to have terrible players as well... simply with more aggression and a few pros mixed in.

5) What do you guys see as an acceptable bankroll for live 10/20 and/or 20/40? 300 BBs? More? Less?

6) Any recommendations for LHE books?


I appreciate very much in advance any help you can provide me. If there is a more appropriate thread or forum for this post, please let me know.

-Karak

Edit - just to be clear... I'm not becoming a full time pro. This would just be a "part time job" really during the summer and breaks. If I transfer to a law school near a casino, I'd probably play 1 session a week or so on the weekends during non-finals time of the school year.

Last edited by Karak; 03-14-2010 at 05:19 AM.
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:16 AM   #383
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karak View Post
3) What type of hourly rate at 10 live is reasonable/usual? If a player was absolutely at the top of the field, what could he expect to make? I felt like 2 BBs an hour is very doable at this game (conservatively). Is this a ridiculous assumption? I honestly don't know.
2BB/hour is REALLY hard to maintain. I think 1.5-1.75 is a better estimate of what a player can expect to make in a soft game. And this requires never playing your d-game which is also hard to accomplish 100%. I think you should basically not expect more than 1.25 BB/hr as far as "playing for a living" goes.

As for a bankroll, 300BBs is plenty unless you expect to never have any reserves and can't move down in stakes. Then I would recommend 500BBs.
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:37 AM   #384
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

whats the rake in that 10/20? that game is ridiculously soft for the same reason any 2-5nl game is ridiculously soft. there are no pros/serious players. the game being limit rather than no limit doesn't doesn't change things a ton at this level.

congrats on the success. even if 1.5BB/hr+ is achievable, i'd plan on achieving 1 or less. in part because you are admittedly just getting into the swing of things and secondly because long term winrates have a tendency to drop simply because most people who put a ton of hours into a game start off with a hot streak or else they wouldn't have ever gotten off the ground. also its just good business sense to plan conservatively.

i think most people are going to tell you 10/20 is not a place where you can make a living. unless you don't mind living the lifestyle of a starbucks employee even though you maintain a five figure bankroll. probably should have 25k for career play, 5k-10k or even less if part time depending on goals/priorities...
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Old 03-14-2010, 06:33 AM   #385
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

Well I'm trying to lose more than 100bbs in a fr bel 60/120. Current tally is 90bb, joy
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:21 AM   #386
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karak View Post
4) If I indeed am as well-equipped as I think I am for 10/20, how would I fare in the 20/40 game (assuming if/when I get the correct size bankroll)? I sweat it for a bit this week just to see, and it seems to have terrible players as well... simply with more aggression and a few pros mixed in.

.
if you can beat 10/20 comfortably once you get settled in with live poker , you need to play 20/40 asap . I would say people are going to tell you that on average the play at both levels is pretty much the same. Obviously this can vary so don't hold me to it. Also not every 20/40 game has a pro in it either.
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:20 AM   #387
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

Karak,

Your observations on the game conditions were spot on. I tend to agree with ImAllInNow on winrates. My own results were *only* 1.5BB/hr (started off on a downswing) but I am definitely a better player now and I think I might be able to do 1.75... (and since I hardly ever play 10/20 I can persist in this delusion forever). As for bankroll I would say 500BB min, however if you're willing to move down in limits you really only need a tiny fraction of that, with the obvious caveat that you need to keep 500BB in the lowest stakes you are willing to play.
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Old 03-14-2010, 11:32 AM   #388
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

In all of lastnight I got 20 mins of 15 30 hu, and 1 hand of 30 60 after which dude wouldn't post his bb. Either:

1. People think I am better than I am
2. Everyone is really lazy
3. Everyone is really busto
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Old 03-14-2010, 12:24 PM   #389
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

Thanks for all the advice guys.

Let me also say I estimated 2 BB/hour just kind of randomly. I'm currently winning SIGNIFICANTLY more than 2BB/hour at that game... a lot more. Like I said my results make it fairly apparent that I'm running very hot right now.

But I am looking for what I can conservatively estimate... and it seems the consensus is 1.25/1.5 BB/hour. That's fine with me for now. No one wants to pay first year law students and those who do pay 15/hr max (and those jobs are extremely hard to find first year and generally require relocation). As long as I'm making 20-25+/hr, then I'm fine with it for a summer job. My expenses are very low. I'm also considering playing 2/5 and 5/10 NL, but I don't currently have the correct size bankroll and like I said LHE is much easier for me to play live.

I should be properly rolled for 10/20, and if I ever did have to move down, I would be "moving down" to 1/2 NL and not 3/6 LHE. I'd have no problems taking 1-2k and taking a shot at 20/40.

Thanks again for all your advice. Was glad to hear from you too Bremen since I know you play 20 at the Borg pretty often... and man I was licking my chops watching that game Friday afternoon. I nearly jumped in.
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Old 03-14-2010, 03:22 PM   #390
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

didnt read replies after your post karak but i wouldnt depend on 10/20 lhe for a living. im sure youre a favorite in the game but 100 hours of winning live play is about the same as 2 days of winning online play 4 tabling for 3-4 hrs each time. the game is small enough that the rake/tipping (plus gas for driving there and food if its not comped, im not familiar w/ AC casinos) is very very costly and as such i wouldnt expect to win more than $10-15/hr. i guess if 10-15/hr is enough for your living expenses then go for it but you arent exactly going to be living large by grinding 10/20 live. you would make substantially more 4 tabling $1/2 limit online with substantially less risk.

*edit*
i read the replies. everyone telling you that 1.5+bb/hr is possible is living in a delusional fantasy land. nobody is winning that much in any raked limit holdem game in any casino, and someone with basically 3000 hands of limit poker under their belt cannot possibly win anything even remotely close to that. what you do is up to you but dont make any important life decisions based on the fantastic beliefs about unicorns and the leprechauns magic pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that ppl are talking about.
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Old 03-14-2010, 04:01 PM   #391
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by HOWMANY View Post
didnt read replies after your post karak but i wouldnt depend on 10/20 lhe for a living. im sure youre a favorite in the game but 100 hours of winning live play is about the same as 2 days of winning online play 4 tabling for 3-4 hrs each time. the game is small enough that the rake/tipping (plus gas for driving there and food if its not comped, im not familiar w/ AC casinos) is very very costly and as such i wouldnt expect to win more than $10-15/hr. i guess if 10-15/hr is enough for your living expenses then go for it but you arent exactly going to be living large by grinding 10/20 live. you would make substantially more 4 tabling $1/2 limit online with substantially less risk.

*edit*
i read the replies. everyone telling you that 1.5+bb/hr is possible is living in a delusional fantasy land. nobody is winning that much in any raked limit holdem game in any casino, and someone with basically 3000 hands of limit poker under their belt cannot possibly win anything even remotely close to that. what you do is up to you but dont make any important life decisions based on the fantastic beliefs about unicorns and the leprechauns magic pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that ppl are talking about.
Game is $5 per half time and it's easy to organize time pots. I haven't played that game in 5 years but I'd say you're easily worth $30/hr. Unless you've played mid limits on the East Coast it's impossible to describe how straightforward the games are. 1/2 online is significantly tougher. The typical 4/8 at Commerce is probably more aggressive postflop.

Regardless, I would say work the entire summer and play on weekends only. I don't see the point of plowing like $30K a year in law school unless you're going to do it with a full commitment to practicing afterward.
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:41 PM   #392
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

On the 'annoyance-o-meter' of live play I put cutting chips on front of your stack and then slowly matching the bet by it's side, sliding both forward while announcing 'raise' at ~92/100. It would be higher but for the incredible douchiness of live players overall.

Once again: **** you very much, nl tv poker.
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:46 PM   #393
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
On the 'annoyance-o-meter' of live play I put cutting chips on front of your stack and then slowly matching the bet by it's side, sliding both forward while announcing 'raise' at ~92/100. It would be higher but for the incredible douchiness of live players overall.

Once again: **** you very much, nl tv poker.
I was playing 40 yesterday at HG and I saw a guy fist pump and let out a geniune "yes!!!!!!!" when he won like a 13 BB pot. Without a doubt, when he raised he did what you describe above.
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:51 PM   #394
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

How come none of the PokerStove-esque tools that let you assign a % range have a second slider so you can exclude a raising range as well?

I want to see the top 40% minus the top 12%. And I don't want to click a bunch of boxes manually.
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:02 PM   #395
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

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Originally Posted by bisonbison View Post
How come none of the PokerStove-esque tools that let you assign a % range have a second slider so you can exclude a raising range as well?

I want to see the top 40% minus the top 12%. And I don't want to click a bunch of boxes manually.

Holdem managers range tool does this.
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:17 PM   #396
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

Flopzilla, too.
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:51 PM   #397
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

Any free tools? I'm a PT3 guy.
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:23 PM   #398
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

Too much bball and ATL southern belles. Not enough grind on the mind.
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:26 PM   #399
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard Beale View Post
On the 'annoyance-o-meter' of live play I put cutting chips on front of your stack and then slowly matching the bet by it's side, sliding both forward while announcing 'raise' at ~92/100. It would be higher but for the incredible douchiness of live players overall.

Once again: **** you very much, nl tv poker.
Sorry, thats how I like it.

Kinda sad that I woulda posted a loss today if I didn't hit those two gutshots.

I only got dealt 3 pocket pairs in 6 hours of play...biggest was TT.

And that becomes even more frustrating when a table nit sits for 2 hours and gets AA and KK twice each. Oh well.
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:37 PM   #400
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Re: March Low-Content Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by bisonbison View Post
How come none of the PokerStove-esque tools that let you assign a % range have a second slider so you can exclude a raising range as well?

I want to see the top 40% minus the top 12%. And I don't want to click a bunch of boxes manually.
I think ProPokerTools can do this too but not sure. I know it can do top 15% PLO hands excluding AAxx.

Edit: Looks like you can only do this in their Omaha calculator. Odd.
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