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Old 08-03-2017, 04:34 PM   #126
prophet73
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

Not sure how you'd verify this, but I'd wager you spend less brainpower/hour spent at a cardroom (in your regular game you're comfortable in) than you do at a regular job even if you only spend half the time doing real work in the office. There's also energy/mental cost of having to interact with co-workers/bosses/procedures which is almost certainly more than someone who can put their headphones on and speak in almost all short phrases for a full session.
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Old 08-03-2017, 04:48 PM   #127
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

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Everything callip says is right. In addition, on the other side of the ledger, a GOOD poker player is probably spending significant additional time away from the tables doing things like session reviews, posting hands on 2+2 or discussing them with poker buddies, reading, playing against simulators, and otherwise getting better at poker. And that's all real work in addition to the hours at the table.
If you're going to view it that way then the standard 40 hour work week doesn't account for time spent outside looking for new/better job opportunities, taking continuing education classes or obligatory work functions (which sometimes aren't really voluntary in a practical sense), not even to mention college/grad school that are required to get many of these jobs.
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Old 08-03-2017, 04:51 PM   #128
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

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I'm not complaining. But salaried workers are getting paid to poop and smoke and flirt, poker pros get their salaries docked every time they miss a hand.
Maybe I shouldn't, but I'm going to let you in on some personal financial info: In my hourly winrate (however meaningless) I get paid not only to poop, but pee as well! #benefits
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Old 08-03-2017, 05:04 PM   #129
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

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Originally Posted by prophet73 View Post
Not sure how you'd verify this, but I'd wager you spend less brainpower/hour spent at a cardroom (in your regular game you're comfortable in) than you do at a regular job even if you only spend half the time doing real work in the office. There's also energy/mental cost of having to interact with co-workers/bosses/procedures which is almost certainly more than someone who can put their headphones on and speak in almost all short phrases for a full session.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
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Old 08-03-2017, 05:32 PM   #130
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

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You have no idea what you're talking about.
Care to elaborate? Obv depends on assumptions of "regular job" or definition of "brainpower", but in my experience a job that makes $100-$150K/year is more energy intensive than playing 7-8 post flop hands/hour in a cardroom.

Unless I'm missing your sarcasm.
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Old 08-03-2017, 07:11 PM   #131
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

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Care to elaborate? Obv depends on assumptions of "regular job" or definition of "brainpower", but in my experience a job that makes $100-$150K/year is more energy intensive than playing 7-8 post flop hands/hour in a cardroom.

Unless I'm missing your sarcasm.
Check your assumptions.
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Old 08-03-2017, 07:53 PM   #132
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

I think his assumptions are both correct but also incomplete. I would imagine that for most good players the majority of a live poker session can be played on auto pilot, and while tough decions that require some thought will arise it will likely be a situation they have faced before and are somewhat familiar with. However, getting to this spot requires a great deal of work and either putting in tons of time playing/studying hands or running sims away from the table.

So yes, some people can show up the casino and make .7 bets/hour or whatever while playing candy crush and clash of clans non stop which is far easier than almost any 9-5 job, but that person likely put in far more work getting to that spot than almost any salaried employee ever will
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Old 08-04-2017, 07:49 AM   #133
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

Perhaps, but the ones playing candy crush or whatever do not seem to make a lot of money.

I can't imagine not adapting to how your opponents play, and playing games on the cell phone instead. prophet makes poker sound like labor-free work! Hold'em you can cruise for a while, but one should be very aware of how their opponents are playing to get even adequate hand-reading. And, there is no shortage of work to do away from the tables.

In short, I personally don't observe the candy crushers win very much. They also get less action, because everyone knows they are just trying to play tight. They are largely nits.
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Old 08-04-2017, 10:14 AM   #134
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

Candy crush is so 3 years ago.


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Old 08-04-2017, 10:33 AM   #135
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Perhaps, but the ones playing candy crush or whatever do not seem to make a lot of money.

I can't imagine not adapting to how your opponents play, and playing games on the cell phone instead. prophet makes poker sound like labor-free work! Hold'em you can cruise for a while, but one should be very aware of how their opponents are playing to get even adequate hand-reading. And, there is no shortage of work to do away from the tables.

In short, I personally don't observe the candy crushers win very much. They also get less action, because everyone knows they are just trying to play tight. They are largely nits.
I think this is total game / stakes dependent.
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:02 AM   #136
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

Yup, beating a live 20/40 game requires more brainpower and hard work than a 150k job.

Never change, 2+2.
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Old 08-04-2017, 12:45 PM   #137
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

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Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Perhaps, but the ones playing candy crush or whatever do not seem to make a lot of money.

I can't imagine not adapting to how your opponents play, and playing games on the cell phone instead. prophet makes poker sound like labor-free work! Hold'em you can cruise for a while, but one should be very aware of how their opponents are playing to get even adequate hand-reading. And, there is no shortage of work to do away from the tables.

In short, I personally don't observe the candy crushers win very much. They also get less action, because everyone knows they are just trying to play tight. They are largely nits.
That's why I had the caveat of a regular midstakes game you're comfortable in, i.e. you have a solid grasp on your opponents general tendencies/ranges and take a gauge on their current status (stuck/tilting or not), lineup changes, etc.

And just because I said it requires less brainpower, I'm not saying you can opt to stare at your phone the entire time. But I'm not sure we'll come to agreement if you think the repeated tasks in a midstakes LHE cash game require more effort/energy/thought than those in an office job that pays the same. The sheer quantity difference between them should be sufficient to make the case.

EDIT: I didn't say midstakes before, but tried to imply that by the annual earn.

Last edited by prophet73; 08-04-2017 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 08-04-2017, 11:26 PM   #138
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

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This is certainly unique to the workplace since no players have ever done this with dealers/other players

You realize I was specifically responding to the quote that working 40 hours a week is easy because everyone in the nonpoker world does it?


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I think his assumptions are both correct but also incomplete. I would imagine that for most good players the majority of a live poker session can be played on auto pilot, and while tough decions that require some thought will arise it will likely be a situation they have faced before and are somewhat familiar with. However, getting to this spot requires a great deal of work and either putting in tons of time playing/studying hands or running sims away from the table.

So yes, some people can show up the casino and make .7 bets/hour or whatever while playing candy crush and clash of clans non stop which is far easier than almost any 9-5 job, but that person likely put in far more work getting to that spot than almost any salaried employee ever will
In your quest to trip over yourself to brag about how hard you work, you missed that I have agreed with you all along.

Putting in 40 hours at the table is way harder than getting paid for 40 hours at a salaried job. (Putting in 40 hours at any job is way harder than getting paid for 40 hours at a salaried job for that matter.)

So the idea that playing 40 hours a week must be easy because lots of people get paid for 40 hours a week at jobs is faulty.
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Old 08-05-2017, 12:32 PM   #139
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

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Putting in 40 hours at the table is way harder than getting paid for 40 hours at a salaried job. (Putting in 40 hours at any job is way harder than getting paid for 40 hours at a salaried job for that matter.)

So the idea that playing 40 hours a week must be easy because lots of people get paid for 40 hours a week at jobs is faulty.
I just don't see how this can be true. As I and couple others above have pointed out, you're also playing varying intensities within that 40 hours in the cardroom just like you are in 40 hours at a salaried job. But if we go pound-for-pound, the specific tasks that are required in poker just don't take as much effort (given that you've done work away from table, are comfortable with the general lineup, etc). The most intense actions like thinking deeply for a minute max about whether to 3B/call/fold to a turn or river raise can't be much more intense than even basic office tasks like creating spreadsheets or reviewing documents for errors, before we mention more complicated ones. But not simply due to the complexities, but also because of the interest level and engagement. We've all be more drained more by doing mundane/forced things than doing high-level/desired activities.

BTW, I'm not saying making a living playing poker is easy by any means. In fact I wouldn't recommend it to most people. There are tons of factors that make it much worse than a regular job (risk of ruin, lack of benefits, poor physical activity, general degenerate environment, etc). I am simply arguing that an average salaried job with the same earn potential has more brain energy-requiring tasks.
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Old 08-05-2017, 12:35 PM   #140
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

It's not that difficult to figure out guys. If there were someone who could fire you from being a poker player if you didn't put in 40 hours a week, most pros would have zero problem doing it.


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Old 08-05-2017, 03:38 PM   #141
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

Midstakes is so easy, which is why everyone is doing it rather than those salary jobs which are hard to come by.
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Old 08-05-2017, 05:34 PM   #142
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

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Midstakes is so easy, which is why everyone is doing it rather than those salary jobs which are hard to come by.
Besides the previously mentioned negatives to playing poker for a living, to get to the point where you can consistently beat midstakes isn't easy. If this discussion was whether it's easier to obtain a salaried job or become a winning midstakes poker player, I might have a different viewpoint. But I argue once you have achieved a certain level of knowledge (and yes, continued study of your play and opponents) the actual activity and time spent in a cardroom isn't harder.
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Old 08-05-2017, 07:54 PM   #143
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

I think writing an essay is waaaay harder than solving maff problems.

However I rather write than run. Running is very very very hard.
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Old 08-05-2017, 08:08 PM   #144
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

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But I argue once you have achieved a certain level of knowledge (and yes, continued study of your play and opponents) the actual activity and time spent in a cardroom isn't harder.
This is obviously true and I can't imagine anyone would disagree with that.
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Old 08-06-2017, 05:07 AM   #145
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

I'm 100% exhausted after a 10+ hour session.
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Old 08-07-2017, 02:35 PM   #146
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

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It's not that difficult to figure out guys. If there were someone who could fire you from being a poker player if you didn't put in 40 hours a week, most pros would have zero problem doing it.
And if you define "pros" as people who already do that without the threat of a boss firing them, it's even less difficult to figure out.

By that measure, it must not be very hard to get drafted into the NFL- dozens of people do it every year; it must not be very hard to listen to someone singing and jump in on the saxophone in tune in rhythm - every city has a few guys on the subway who can do it.

Just because a bunch of really good poker players who spent a ton of time honing their skills and in many cases moved around the country to make their dreams come true can do something doesn't make it easy or even standard.

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once you have achieved a certain level of knowledge (and yes, continued study of your play and opponents) the actual activity and time spent in a cardroom isn't harder.
Even if it's no harder, it's also no easier.

Every person has their skills, plus things they like, and maybe most importantly, **** they're willing to tolerate. For example, I am pretty intolerant of accounting **** and maybe not coincidentally terrible at it - when I cleaned out a safety deposit box I overlooked an embarrassing number of 1k chips and found them a few months later. Accounting is hard for me, poker is moderately difficult, science is easy. It's way easier for me to put in a 60 hour week sciencing than a 30 hour week pokering (I tried to put in a single 30 hour week once, hilarity ensued). I suspect for others it's the other way around.

As a whole - training to get to a high level, availability of games (I have it in my mind you play or played at the Oaks - the 30/60 may not even run 2,000 hours/year there so even if you're willing to put in the hours you just physically can't), monotony of discipline on a day to day basis - is poker harder or easier than any other occupation? Probably harder on the first two due to lack of training options and game options. But even if you're in a good location and have solid relationships with elite players, it's at least no easier than any other job. Everyone has to put up with a day to day routine that's often pretty boring.

The difference is that at a salaried job you get paid whether you fall asleep in a meeting or actively participate. Even an hourly worker could pretend to be sorting things in the warehouse and sneak a nap. To that end, the day to day of poker is more like a freelancer or contractor - you don't get paid unless you actively work.

Last edited by callipygian; 08-07-2017 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 08-07-2017, 02:59 PM   #147
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

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And if you define "pros" as people who already do that without the threat of a boss firing them, it's even less difficult to figure out.

By that measure, it must not be very hard to get drafted into the NFL- dozens of people do it every year; it must not be very hard to listen to someone singing and jump in on the saxophone in tune in rhythm - every city has a few guys on the subway who can do it.

Just because a bunch of really good poker players who spent a ton of time honing their skills and in many cases moved around the country to make their dreams come true can do something doesn't make it easy or even standard.



Even if it's no harder, it's also no easier.

Every person has their skills, plus things they like, and maybe most importantly, **** they're willing to tolerate. For example, I am pretty intolerant of accounting **** and maybe not coincidentally terrible at it - when I cleaned out a safety deposit box I overlooked an embarrassing number of 1k chips and found them a few months later. Accounting is hard for me, poker is moderately difficult, science is easy. It's way easier for me to put in a 60 hour week sciencing than a 30 hour week pokering (I tried to put in a single 30 hour week once, hilarity ensued). I suspect for others it's the other way around.

As a whole - training to get to a high level, availability of games (I have it in my mind you play or played at the Oaks - the 30/60 may not even run 2,000 hours/year there so even if you're willing to put in the hours you just physically can't), monotony of discipline on a day to day basis - is poker harder or easier than any other occupation? Probably harder on the first two due to lack of training options and game options. But even if you're in a good location and have solid relationships with elite players, it's at least no easier than any other job. Everyone has to put up with a day to day routine that's often pretty boring.

The difference is that at a salaried job you get paid whether you fall asleep in a meeting or actively participate. Even an hourly worker could pretend to be sorting things in the warehouse and sneak a nap. To that end, the day to day of poker is more like a freelancer or contractor - you don't get paid unless you actively work.
Agree with some points but the NFL analogy is quite ridiculous. Any intelligent person could play 20-40 for a living if they really wanted to. But why would you want to play 20-40 or even 100-200 for a living if you could be a doctor or own your own business or whatever. People aren't in this NFL not for a lack of desire or hard work but because it's incredibly difficult.
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:06 PM   #148
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

For example. Cali, let's say somebody offers you a 10 million dollar free roll if your son can either become a successful poker pro (let's say beats x limit for x years) or gets drafted in the NFL. What do you think the odds are for either side?

Poker pro: -1500
Drafted in NFL: +3,000,000
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:12 PM   #149
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

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Even if it's no harder, it's also no easier.

Every person has their skills, plus things they like, and maybe most importantly, **** they're willing to tolerate. For example, I am pretty intolerant of accounting **** and maybe not coincidentally terrible at it - when I cleaned out a safety deposit box I overlooked an embarrassing number of 1k chips and found them a few months later. Accounting is hard for me, poker is moderately difficult, science is easy. It's way easier for me to put in a 60 hour week sciencing than a 30 hour week pokering (I tried to put in a single 30 hour week once, hilarity ensued). I suspect for others it's the other way around.
I think this is fair, but then it becomes a question of your decision-making with regards to your profession. You chose to science for a living, which makes sense because it generates more income per energy/effort spent than poker for you. While others in here have claimed to choose poker, yet can't muster the energy to play even 30 hours/week. So this debate exists within the boundaries of someone who consciously chose their profession.

Quote:
As a whole - training to get to a high level, availability of games (I have it in my mind you play or played at the Oaks - the 30/60 may not even run 2,000 hours/year there so even if you're willing to put in the hours you just physically can't), monotony of discipline on a day to day basis - is poker harder or easier than any other occupation? Probably harder on the first two due to lack of training options and game options. But even if you're in a good location and have solid relationships with elite players, it's at least no easier than any other job. Everyone has to put up with a day to day routine that's often pretty boring.
Again, I'm not talking about achieving the ability to play those games. I'm talking about the day-to-day. If we wanted to talk about the path leading up to that, then we also have to add in the difficulty and effort within higher education, job availabilities, etc for average salaried positions of the same income level. And I agree it gets murkier there what is easier.

Quote:
The difference is that at a salaried job you get paid whether you fall asleep in a meeting or actively participate. Even an hourly worker could pretend to be sorting things in the warehouse and sneak a nap. To that end, the day to day of poker is more like a freelancer or contractor - you don't get paid unless you actively work.
A poker player can also go on a 2BB/hr run for a long time and take a month off and theoretically maintain their hourly earn at the end of the year, but if a salaried person did the same, they would not (since they would likely be fired). So saying "you don't get paid unless you actively work" can apply to salaried positions in different circumstances.

Last edited by prophet73; 08-07-2017 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:40 PM   #150
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Re: Live LHE Win Rates

It's interesting to me how many people are drawn to making poker a profession and find it to be a miserable existence. I LOVE playing poker. If I was single I think I would happily play 60 hours a week, if not more.

These are my live hours for the last few years. I was working 30 hours a week from start of 2015 to October 2016 on top of playing poker. Been playing full time since then. These numbers don't include any online sessions, which is another 1100+ hours, but doesn't factor in multi-tabling.

2015: 124 hours/month
2016: 132 hours/month
2017: 147.5 hours/month

Last edited by TheDarkKnight; 08-07-2017 at 04:49 PM.
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