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Old 06-19-2017, 02:41 PM   #1
WileyQuixote
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Talking LHE hand in HORSE tournament

I start hand with 33k, in the BB for 6k with 67o. My image is tight but solid.. folds to sb who raises, I know he's raising any 2 against me.. consider 3bet, elect to call instead. Flop 34J rainbow. Sb leads, I raise.. he hmms and haws, call. Turn is a 2. He checks, I throw my last 9k in praying for a fold, he agonizes and calls, turns up 57dd lol river J, I take it down.

Despite the fact that it felt gangster as **** to win that pot, how bad is the actual play? Any merit to 3betting pf?
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:44 PM   #2
SetofJacks
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

With such a short stack my inkling is to just fold preflop.
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Old 06-20-2017, 12:18 AM   #3
MacauBound
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

You didn't mention if this was deep or on the bubble, so I'm assuming ICM is irrelevant.

NH, you have less than 3 bets and while I might only defend 70% to SB steal in this exact situation, as compared to like 85-90% in cg, 76o should be fine to see flop with. You can either raise the flop or the turn in cg, but I don't think you can take any other line but raise flop and go with it in this spot.
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Old 06-20-2017, 05:19 AM   #4
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

If you're close to the bubble, it's obviously bad, but otherwise if you have any fold equity you may want to try to use it here rather than get blinded off, but I don't know for sure. I don't hate it. There are lots of hands he has that folds to the raise OTF given your read on his play.
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Old 06-20-2017, 10:40 AM   #5
PaulValente
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

NH
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:44 AM   #6
WileyQuixote
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

At that point I think we'd lost about half the field. 15k starting stack, blinds getting bigger.. nobody really has many bets. Villain had about 60k to start the hand.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:10 AM   #7
leavesofliberty
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

This is the best prospect you'll see for your chips.
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Old 06-21-2017, 02:57 PM   #8
Frankie Fuzz
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

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Originally Posted by SetofJacks View Post
With such a short stack my inkling is to just fold preflop.
I have limited experience in tournaments, but I really can't see any reason why you'd consider folding here. I understand that in no limit tournaments there could be reasons to forego immediate EV to wait for better spots later where our opponents will make larger mistakes. But this is limit holdem. Folding 76o in the BB vs an SB open would be a pretty large mistake EV wise, probably much bigger than the mistakes our opponents will make in later hands against us. I guess I could imagine a scenario where our opponents are INCREDIBLY tight and we would rather save a small bet to give us more leverage pre flop or on the flop in a later hand...but this seems like a stretch to me.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:33 PM   #9
SetofJacks
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

We have no intrinsic showdown value and we're basically all-in bound if we defend and see anything that remotely connects.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:40 PM   #10
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

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NH
really? I have almost no experience in limit tourneys but this hand looks ridiculous to me. You are a respected poster so if this really is a good hand in your opinion, can you explain why?
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Old 06-21-2017, 08:01 PM   #11
leavesofliberty
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

The only problem is that a short stack like that has almost no fold equity in practice. So, I think folding pre is reasonable to preserve, and hit a hand worthy of going all-in with before the blinds hit you again. It's not worth peeling the flop, and then folding, because you're doubling up one less bet with your "free hands". So, it's either fold pre, or go for it here, which IMHO is a very read dependent situation (though I always seem to say that, fwiw).

Do you really have fold equity? Do you really? So many players just want to go home with the short stack, and people re-act by calling down w/ the king high, etc. That's my only hang-up about this hand.
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:20 PM   #12
monikrazy
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

I've never played a limit hold em tournament but this seems like a great hand to discuss. I'm not clear on how much FE our cr should really have and would consider calling and leading (all?) most turns as a reasonable alternative that leaves us with a strong range given our stack size.
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Old 06-22-2017, 11:20 AM   #13
WileyQuixote
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

I expected him to fold most flops, but perhaps that was a little shortsighted.

Given how the hand played out, he's probably calling a much wider range than I anticipated.

Anyways, playing day 2 of binions $585 HORSE championship today. Wish me luck
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Old 06-22-2017, 06:14 PM   #14
Michael Davis
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

With 2.75 bets (is this right?), it's not true that we have no fold equity. Calling preflop and calling the flop, he should see you as committed and give up with some hands on the turn.

I would not raise the flop because I think calling the flop is likelier to get folds, but I might be wrong on this, the flop is really your only chance to take an aggressive action with fold equity unless your opponent checks.

Threebetting preflop would have been a disaster. I want to keep the pot as small as possible at every opportunity to increase the chance I can take it down with a turn bet.
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:20 PM   #15
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

Quote:
Originally Posted by WileyQuixote View Post
I expected him to fold most flops, but perhaps that was a little shortsighted.

Given how the hand played out, he's probably calling a much wider range than I anticipated.

Anyways, playing day 2 of binions $585 HORSE championship today. Wish me luck
I think there are plenty of hands he will fold to an aggressive action on the flop, but I don't think you open with 57dd to fold a flop where you have at least 4 (and potentially as many as 11.5) outs against a short stack.
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Old 06-23-2017, 05:03 PM   #16
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

i think its very close but a fold pre flop. Assuming we fold sb as well (Sometimes we get a good hand) we have 7 hands to look for a slightly better spot to stick it in and either steal the blinds or ideally get to 3 bet somebody and get the double up + blinds back.

I just think there are going to be to many run outs where we don't get to realize our full equity with this hand or worse we end up going broke trying to realize that and end up being in very bad shape.

Here are a few example, what do we do on these flops with the 6-7:
(1) 9-10-2
(2) 8-10-10 or 8-10-K
(3) 223, 228, 239
(4) 2-5-10

There are going to be so many hands where we flop the 2 live cards and 3 to a straight that we end up peeling the flop because we are getting 5-1 then end up calling all in on the turn with 7 hi and a gunshot; either that or we fold lots of flops where we are getting 5-1 and have 6-8 clean outs (accounting for backdoor stuff)
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Old 06-23-2017, 05:07 PM   #17
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

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I think there are plenty of hands he will fold to an aggressive action on the flop, but I don't think you open with 57dd to fold a flop where you have at least 4 (and potentially as many as 11.5) outs against a short stack.
if there are hands he folds on the flop its only because OP says he is opening any 2 which I don't think is correct or likely. I think lots of players are more likely to limp the bottom of their ranges here and folding the absolute trash because its to likely bb decides to stick it in and then sb ends up getting in 5 sb with 2-7o.
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Old 06-23-2017, 05:49 PM   #18
OnTheRail15
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

Folding pre is absurd guys.


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Old 06-23-2017, 06:09 PM   #19
jdr0317
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

Call and raise flop when you catch is perfectly fine.

Come on guys, you really think this SB is just going to call off with ATC? We have some fold equity here.
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Old 06-23-2017, 08:30 PM   #20
leavesofliberty
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

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Call and raise flop when you catch is perfectly fine.

Come on guys, you really think this SB is just going to call off with ATC? We have some fold equity here.
I'm thinking the lowest a K (or maybe Q) with a rag higher than the other two that's going to call, so not exactly any two, but many hands. But the exact FE is going to vary greatly between players. People that play fit-or-fold, you should absolutely take a stand here. Perhaps V with his stack will play fit-or-fold with it, or perhaps not. So, I think it's read dependent.
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Old 06-24-2017, 06:03 PM   #21
Omahaisbetter
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

Honestly, I don't mind a fold pre in a tourney. You still have 27k in limit tourneys you can run a short stack up if you make a few hands in an orbit. If you want to play this hand I definitely agree with those recommending keeping the pot small pre and on the flop. It is an interesting hand to think about. I'm looking to get all my chips in with any hand I play when in the 5 -6 bets area and I just don't love the 7 high. It's not necessarily that your opponents will make a big mistake but you can find a spot with a dominating hand and will likely have position to semi bluff. Glad you won the hand and GL!
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Old 06-25-2017, 11:28 AM   #22
phunkphish
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

You know how people say 'equities run close in PLO' ? Equities run close for SB vs 76o.
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Old 06-30-2017, 07:46 PM   #23
COCOCHANEL
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacauBound View Post
You didn't mention if this was deep or on the bubble, so I'm assuming ICM is irrelevant.



NH, you have less than 3 bets and while I might only defend 70% to SB steal in this exact situation, as compared to like 85-90% in cg, 76o should be fine to see flop with. You can either raise the flop or the turn in cg, but I don't think you can take any other line but raise flop and go with it in this spot.


+1. NH


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Old 07-02-2017, 03:13 AM   #24
Montrealcorp
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

It is such a low stack I lean toward a fold and the main reason:
we should have a wide 3bet range.
So when we call pf we have a lot of those kind of hands happening and small blind knows our hand is weak and he should have plenty of outs for not folding.

In tourney you need SD value imo. this hand represent exactly what often happens when you have no SD value.

oP played it great .....for a cashgame or with a large stack.

It is true I have limited experience for limit tourney tho but it is how I feel about it.

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 07-02-2017 at 03:19 AM.
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Old 07-02-2017, 10:42 PM   #25
leavesofliberty
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Re: LHE hand in HORSE tournament

I suppose you weigh this hand against the probability of getting an all-in decent equity hand before hitting the blinds again, and do a comparative, but it's not so easy or straightforward. Tourney definitely adds another dimension to the problem. Put an all-in worthy hand probability at like, say, ~12%, and how many players total at the table. If it was like 5 handed then you may as well go, but assuming it's full, you have a decent shot at finding a better spot.
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