I've played maybe 20 hours with the BB. He seems to be a typical TAG. I have been in 3 BVB situations with him where I checked the turn oop and he bet. I folded twice and once called him down and he showed top pair. I don't know how often or if at all that he will float. I have bet the turn and he folded in other situations outside of the blinds. I figure he isn't peeling super light in any situation. He does have a 3 bet range in this spot.

Folded to me and I raise from the SB with KQo, BB calls.

As9c9h....I bet and he calls.

As9c9h3d.....I think checking has to be the play here right? What is the plan if he bets? I would call against some less trustable players and make them fire again. Do you guy's have a standard way of approaching this situation. If you are the BB, are you floating here at all? How lightly are you peeling? Is this a spot to bluff raise?

Very specific to that exact board, really have to bet KQ b/c of where it falls in your range. Consider that you should be betting this turn with all your Jx and worse air. You should also be c/r a small part of your 9x. So, you have to balance all that air betting with more than your A/9/3 (although really not many 3s in our range). And it's a rare board where we don't have any draw to semibluff.
Soooo, KQ/KJ/KT seem to be in this weird value bet/semibluff grey cloud on this rare board.

Plan if he bets is to have some c/r range. C/C any Kx your not betting and maybe QJ.

Plan for BB (for someone who calls all preflop) would be to raise something like A7+, 9x, J8/T8/87 and probably a couple poorish suited hands with backdoor flushdraws that I really don't want to call. Calling the rest of Ax, Kx, broadway, most Qxo, Qxs bdfd, Jxs bdfd.

Something like that.

I think this is the type of hand that plays much differently at equilibrium than most players play it in practice. A typical TAG way overfolds this flop, so when we get to the turn, his range is much stronger than it really should be. So, I think the question is whether it is worth it to bet/fold the turn to try to shake some random pocket pairs he might have called flop with but will fold to further action, or if we should just go ahead and shut it down. Giving up is a bigger exploitative adjustment, so I'd probably take a stab at betting again.

I think that I would prefer to check and call down. We have the nut no pair, a great bluff catcher on this board. Betting only makes all his better hands call and most of his worst hands fold, with the exception of QJ. I'm definitely not giving up, and I hate to fold on this board. But, I would not like to isolate myself against a stronger range and check to open up villain's bluffing range.

-maka2184 IMO Default-
Answer 1:
B/C turn without major history and/or HUD data.

Answer 2:
Plan if I checked turn by accident is to chk/call turn & calling most rivers unless info to bluff river.

Answer 3:
Standard is to never fold KQo BvB vs TAG per run out As9c9h3d as played, b/c turn.

Answer 4 & 5:
Yes floating peeling wide as BB, most backdoor,s, Tx+, etc depends in history in 20 hours live OR online.

Answer 6:
No, not a spot to bluff raise as SB as played without history, reads, HUD info.

As BB, solid % I'd bet turn & river as bluff if determined Nit TAG image provided to SB.

+1 to both, seems standard online & live spot.

Imo shouldn't matter in long run if SB / OP min see river although I b/c turn unless have phenomenal reads / stats on HUD.

Perceive BB as TAG fish based on 20 hours of hands & details by OP

PS: Haven't played online and/or with HUD in approximately 10 years

I wonder what he does with 44-66

does he fold after two more bets? if so tripling seems good. does he just go into showdown mode bvb? then I would just check and give up. sometimes you check twice and beat k high or q high or something

personally I would just don’t think this player type will float the flop enough. but if you are curious what he might play like this maybe forcing a showdown is fine. the only problem is that on the river, it looks soooo much like we will call again after calling turn. so I feel weird about calling twice. and I struggle to think of hands that will pure float the flop, unless he is peeling with backdoors in which case check/calling becomes more viable.

To be clear, the BB should be peeling the flop with a very, very wide range. Keep in mind that the SB is opening so wide in a blind vs. blind hand, and our 3b frequency is low enough in the BB, that the presence of an ace on the board really doesn't favor the SB that much. BB should only be folding its very worst hands here. But, as I noted above, and I think you agree with, I see almost no live players floating this flop at anything close to optimal frequency. So, I think almost all our value in this spot comes from betting and taking it down on the flop a much higher portion of the time than we should.

Thus, any strategy that is based around putting in two more big bets trying to bluffcatch just seems bad to me. I can get on board with betting again to shake some stubborn hands, but unless I perceive BB as a very good player, I am absolutely not giving him credit for calling flop and then betting turn with something we can beat. Just no way.

BB really shouldn't be peeling extremely wide as you say. BB should start folding around J7o. It's such a unique board that, from either position, just make sure you're not making yourself super exploitable and you're good to go. Not really the board to worry about nuance imho.

I'd have to run it, but I think BB is also peeling hands worse than J7 high that have backdoor draws. I'm confident it is a big chunk of BB's range that continues, either as a call or raise. I'll report back when I have access to my desktop at home.

I 100% agree with everything you said here which is what makes me hate going into check/call mode. The hands he should have here that would make you want to do that just aren’t there from a tight live player. I feel like we’ll check call twice and get shown a2 or something and the bb will say “I put you on kings” or something ridiculous.

I think I get your points on the part of the range we are at. So does that mean we are b/f b/f turn and river since we don’t beat majority of the stuff they are floating with?

I wouldn't bet/fold both turn and river. If I were to bet turn and get called, I'd probably just check the river unimproved.

Seem a pretty standard way ahead / way behind spot shrug

Yeah, so BB calls or raises about 63% of range.

+1

IMO BB screams TAG fish super exploitable. Doesn't really matter in long run As9c9h3d as SB pfr KQo BvB unless folding too light turn or river

Dude this doesn't make sense. If villain is super exploitable, why would we call him down light on turn and river? That's the opposite of exploiting someone who plays too tight.

As far as betting to push him off of pocket pairs and 6 out floats, keep in mind that our blockers completely suck. We don't block any Ax since he 3bets AK/AQ pre. And K hi/Q hi are targets for our turn barrel, so we block his folding range as well. And more generally, he just has truckloads of Ax and plenty of 9x.

I just check-fold, check-fold and hope it checks down against this guy. Floating light to take it down on the turn isn't a super common play for most regs in my experience. People mostly prefer to raise the flop with their backdoor stuff.

Agree with all of this.

+1 Have bad habit when played vs Commerce TAG regs or tourists in small sample


Depends, Commerce TAG are quite horrendous in my experience 20/40 40/80 60/120.

Im bet calling turn here close to 100% BvB at Commerce vs random TAG. If I'm stuck or check turn on accident I'm chk/c turn & river most run outs for info.

PS: 100/200 small sample during MLK weekend pre pandemic, Sheseasy indicated TAG terrible at 100/200 (same TAG regs from 20/40 40/80 60/120), just ran real bad with sets / overpairs runner runner LAG & Calling station LAP fish