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Old 05-08-2013, 06:35 PM   #1
piranha
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Jama-dharma

I'm posting this because I want the community to be aware of what Jama and some other players are doing to abuse the system. My hope is that Poker Stars sees this and takes some kind of action. I don't have very high hopes considering I typed a lengthy email a few months back about the second worst offender of this, Desktop775, and received no response.

What Jama is doing is sitting alone at every limit from 10/20 to 500/1000 in the seat that guarantees him the button if two other players sit before the first hand is dealt (which often happens). He's then playing short sessions which ensure he's playing one orbit without paying his fair share of blinds.

To understand the value of this:

Here is a breakdown of my positional value in exactly 6-handed play over the last 3 years (~680K hands):

Button: .12 BB/HD
CO: .10 BB/HD
HJ: .10 BB/HD
UTG: .08 BB/HD
SB: (.23) BB/HD
BB: (.12) BB/HD

Now let’s assume you take the seat that guarantees you the button first as Jama is doing and leave the table when it’s 6-handed.

You’re on the button to start and play your button, CO, HJ, and UTG for free. So you gain .4 Big Bets. Now imagine if you left the table say after 2 rounds. You’d play 10 hands and gain .4 Big Bets. Now imagine that’s all you do all day. You’re averaging 4 BB/100. If you left after 4 hands, you’d gain 10 BB/100.

I checked my HEM for the last three years and filtered for all of Jama's sessions:

I've played 331 sessions with him. Of those 331 sessions, he played 10 hands or less in 195 of them. His average session length is 16 hands.

Even more disturbing is that majority of his lengthy sessions are when the recreational player has sat to his immediate right, giving him the best seat at the table in addition to the button first.

To be fair, there are some sessions where I joined the table and the game had already been running but those are in the vast minority. And there also some sessions where I left the table before he left but these are also extremely rare.

Edit: For a frame of reference I've played 25670 sessions over this period and my average session length is 45.3 hands

Last edited by piranha; 05-08-2013 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:47 PM   #2
piranha
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Re: Jama-dharma

Also to add:

I've confronted Jama about this. And one of the things that stands out as suspicious to me is a nosebleed player sitting at 10/20 tables alone. His response was, "I play 10-20 not to steal, but to have some 6max practice, often I'm not in the mood to grind that small but I play few orbits before leaving anyway."

I've played 6 sessions of 10/20 with him and he's played a total of 49 hands, roughly 8 hands per session. That doesn't really jibe with his assertion he's playing for 6-max practice.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:44 AM   #3
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Re: Jama-dharma

A friend [who wants to contribute anonymously] wanted me to post these, which seem to back up your claim:



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Old 05-09-2013, 03:02 AM   #4
piranha
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Re: Jama-dharma

Last addition:

And I don't know why I didn't think to look at this earlier:

In hands with me at the table filtered for more than 2 players, Jama has played:

1066 Buttons
930 Big Blinds
914 Small Blinds

So he's essentially buttoned the table 130+ times in games with me alone.

Edit: Ha I really did not see the post above before posting this.
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Old 05-09-2013, 05:22 AM   #5
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Re: Jama-dharma

I didn't even know that one seat guarantees you a button in +3 handed match. That's sick.
How the hell seat assignment isn't random by default?
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:15 AM   #6
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Re: Jama-dharma

Thanks Tpir, very nice work! I have been aware of this problem for years, but didn't think we stood a chance with Stars since these players aren't violating any rules as far as I know. I did not know Jama or Desktop do this, but I was well aware of the exploit.

It doesn't surprise me though... in the PTR era, I felt that both of these players' winrates were way too high relative to their skill levels.

But I am going to point the finger at Stars and the other sites/live casinos that allow them to similarly abuse buttons. It's just inexcusable for Stars to allow their software to be so exploitable.

Guys, please get behind this hard! Tpir is taking a big risk here... if we are unable to sway Stars, then Tpir essentially just taught everyone who reads this a very profitable software exploit that can really hurt the rest of us. If you don't understand what Tpir is saying here, please keep thinking about it/rereading it until you do. We need to stop this if we want to level the playing field.

Finally, I think it would be awesome if Tpir could somehow be given more power by Stars. Few understand this stuff better than he does, the community trusts him, and he is exceptionally good/patient at explaining/solving these problems. This type of issue is extremely difficult for someone to understand who isn't a modern, high level online poker player.
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:28 AM   #7
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Re: Jama-dharma

It is against the rules UG. I never noticed they were routinely playing short sessions either, so I'd wager Stars just hasn't acted because of the relatively small volume of hands played at higher stakes.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:27 AM   #8
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Re: Jama-dharma

Oh, wow... thought we couldn't do anything about it as long as they played one full round. Do you know the specifics of the rule, Trypt?
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:23 AM   #9
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Re: Jama-dharma

its somewhere in the t&c, not sure if they cleaned up the wording since I last looked. I think its just a generic "button abuse" statement. Up until recently they didn't care about anything that wasn't blatant stealing or grimming.

Last edited by Tryptamean; 05-09-2013 at 08:37 AM. Reason: can't seem to find it all :(
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:58 AM   #10
feruell
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Re: Jama-dharma

I often play short sessions, yes, I prefer to start from the button, yes... and I always play few obligatory orbits before quitting. And the more I play the more I win so I only cost myself money by quitting early.

What do you want from me? Send pokerstars an email, ask them to change the button distribution algorithm if you are not happy with it.

If you want me to play more, fine, we can play 1000 hands at 200-400 either HU or 3-way with a reg of your choice.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:21 PM   #11
piranha
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Re: Jama-dharma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unguarded View Post
Thanks Tpir, very nice work! I have been aware of this problem for years, but didn't think we stood a chance with Stars since these players aren't violating any rules as far as I know. I did not know Jama or Desktop do this, but I was well aware of the exploit.

It doesn't surprise me though... in the PTR era, I felt that both of these players' winrates were way too high relative to their skill levels.

But I am going to point the finger at Stars and the other sites/live casinos that allow them to similarly abuse buttons. It's just inexcusable for Stars to allow their software to be so exploitable.

Guys, please get behind this hard! Tpir is taking a big risk here... if we are unable to sway Stars, then Tpir essentially just taught everyone who reads this a very profitable software exploit that can really hurt the rest of us. If you don't understand what Tpir is saying here, please keep thinking about it/rereading it until you do. We need to stop this if we want to level the playing field.

Finally, I think it would be awesome if Tpir could somehow be given more power by Stars. Few understand this stuff better than he does, the community trusts him, and he is exceptionally good/patient at explaining/solving these problems. This type of issue is extremely difficult for someone to understand who isn't a modern, high level online poker player.
I have been aware of this for years as well and have been very hesitant to tell anybody about as well for fear that everyone would start doing it. I'm at the point where I've brought it to Stars attention with no response and it's happening so frequently that I don't see any other choice. Looking at my own results this year I've paid 300 more big and small blinds than buttons and this is largely in part to Jama and Desktop.

I also agree that the blame lies with Stars. To have seat assignments that aren't random at this point in the ballgame is utterly inexcusable. It's been brought to their attention many times in and nothing has been done. I'm not trying to bash Stars but they've made a huge error here.

It's also unclear whether what Jama is doing is against the rules. In my opinion it should be against the rules and I don't even think it's debatable. He is essentially stealing money from regulars and recreational players alike. He's playing thousands of buttons for free and it's likely made him tens, possibly even hundreds of thousands of dollars. There is nothing poker related about that money, it comes from abusing a flawed system at the expense of unknowing recreational and regular players

If Poker Stars isn't able to randomize seat assignments and I think it's possible there's some reason they can't, then at an absolute minimum people like Jama and Desktop should lose their table starting privileges.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:23 PM   #12
piranha
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Re: Jama-dharma

Quote:
Originally Posted by feruell View Post
I often play short sessions, yes, I prefer to start from the button, yes... and I always play few obligatory orbits before quitting. And the more I play the more I win so I only cost myself money by quitting early.

What do you want from me? Send pokerstars an email, ask them to change the button distribution algorithm if you are not happy with it.

If you want me to play more, fine, we can play 1000 hands at 200-400 either HU or 3-way with a reg of your choice.

So do you admit you're gaming the system as described in my first post? If not, why are you playing thousands of very short sessions?
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:32 PM   #13
piranha
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Re: Jama-dharma

And just to give people an idea of how costly this is. I'm on pace to play about 900 more small and big blinds than other positions. My average stake is 30/60 and the blinds cost me about .35 BB/100. 900*.35 = 315 Big Bets. 315*60 = $18,900. Pretty disgusting.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:54 PM   #14
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Re: Jama-dharma

Jesus you people are smarter than me
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:56 PM   #15
henholland
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Re: Jama-dharma

PS representatives already said its within the rules to wait for action with the intention of playing shorthanded only. On the other hand they said that intentionally not playing your fair share of blinds is against the rules. These two things could often conflict with each other when games fill so quickly.
Would be nice i guess if they could draw the line a little clearer than they do currently.

About sitting out when you get a free button I dont understand why PS doesnt put a limit on this kind of thing, similar to a disconnection protection limit that some sites have.
Also random BTNs FTW, such a no brainer fix as well.
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:59 PM   #16
feruell
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Re: Jama-dharma

I admit that I play long sessions whenever I can and play few orbits when a game is no good or I'm not in the mood to play.

AFAIK, it's absolutely within the rules.

I wait for a good game. Sometimes games I'm not interesting in starting at my tables. I politely play few orbits and then leave. What else can I do?

Obviously my average session is short when that guy from Uzbekistan changes 50 tables a day playing 10-15 hands at each. I hunt for him like everyone else. Doubt your average session with him is any longer than mine.

If I could play him at one table for a few hours I would be happy to be the person left on big blind in the end.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:24 PM   #17
feruell
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Re: Jama-dharma

Ill just leave it here.

You started from CO, played 3 free hands, the one full orbit and left. The game continued and I posted BB after you left.

Why didn't you report yourself?



Because you are a ****ing hypocrite. That's why.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:26 PM   #18
piranha
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Re: Jama-dharma

You're not just passing up bad games, you're passing up nearly every game unless it's a huge recreational player playing high stakes or you have position on a recreational player at midstakes. And what's your excuse at 10/20? Games too tough for you there as well?

It's gross what you're doing, to think you play 1000/2000 and you're resorting to buttoning people at 10/20. I hope you sleep well at night bud.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:40 PM   #19
feruell
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Re: Jama-dharma

Quote:
Originally Posted by piranha View Post
You're not just passing up bad games, you're passing up nearly every game unless it's a huge recreational player playing high stakes or you have position on a recreational player at midstakes. And what's your excuse at 10/20? Games too tough for you there as well?

It's gross what you're doing, to think you play 1000/2000 and you're resorting to buttoning people at 10/20. I hope you sleep well at night bud.
Now I'm buttoning people at 10-20, **** off man. Come and play 200-400 with me and KPR16/kagome/zzeigler.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:41 PM   #20
piranha
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Re: Jama-dharma

Quote:
Originally Posted by feruell View Post
Ill just leave it here.

You started from CO, played 3 free hands, the one full orbit and left. The game continued and I posted BB after you left.

Why didn't you report yourself?



Because you are a ****ing hypocrite. That's why.
Feel free to start a new thread if you think I'm angling the games and I welcome an investigation. This thread isn't about me though, it's about you.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:46 PM   #21
piranha
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Re: Jama-dharma

Quote:
Originally Posted by feruell View Post
Now I'm buttoning people at 10-20, **** off man. Come and play 200-400 with me and KPR16/kagome/zzeigler.
Yes that's exactly what you're doing. And is that all you have to say in your defense? I have nothing to prove, my results speak for themselves. You on the other hand do.
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Old 05-09-2013, 02:57 PM   #22
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Re: Jama-dharma

Quote:
Originally Posted by piranha View Post
Feel free to start a new thread if you think I'm angling the games and I welcome an investigation. This thread isn't about me though, it's about you.
It was about me.

Now its about you.

And I want to talk about you cheating Kingrama out of a button at 200-400, when you two were left hu. First you play your Bu headsup, then you sit out, then you insta sit back to get a button 3-way when I join and game restarts.

Poor kingrama posted 2 big blinds in a row and you played 2 buttons in a row.

Thats the picture of you getting second BU in a row.

Table Jacoba III, 05/07/2013 20:08:47



Very classy.

Have you done it on purpose? No doubts about that. Was it fair to Kingrama? I don't think so. Is it against the rules and ethics norms? Very likely.

How do you sleep at night, hypocrite?
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:01 PM   #23
piranha
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Re: Jama-dharma

Apparantly I"m a very bad cheater. I've played 300 more big and small blinds than buttons this year.



Edit: I'm not too adept at posting attachments, can right-click on picture and open to view. And yes it's filtered for 3-handed or more. Baard from PokerStars when you read this thread as you said you would, please investigate my play along with Jamas. Thank you.

Last edited by piranha; 05-09-2013 at 03:11 PM.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:44 PM   #24
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Re: Jama-dharma

I don't think it matters how often you do it.

It's interesting you don't even try to explain that hand with Kingrama.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:46 PM   #25
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Re: Jama-dharma

Quote:
Originally Posted by feruell View Post
Now I'm buttoning people at 10-20, **** off man. Come and play 200-400 with me and KPR16/kagome/zzeigler.
HAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

Everyone knows the world would end before Jama plays 3-4 handed in those lineups without a fish in the game.
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