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Old 06-10-2016, 05:15 PM   #176
Verona
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

This thread is now trash. Dump it.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:26 PM   #177
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

I doubt Mason is really viewed as a nit. He says he would open A9o and A7s from the lowjack (UTG 6 max) which actually seems a bit on the spewy side if anything. Also he probably defends his BB much more than the average nit, and thus will be appearing in too many pots to be viewed as a nit by anyone who plays with him a fair amount.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:26 PM   #178
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrOlson View Post
This thread is hurting my brain. Can we please lock it up. I don't want to read anymore but I know will keep clicking, lol.
My first thought when I saw this OP was "this is going to be the longest thread in medium stakes history"
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:28 PM   #179
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

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Originally Posted by bipolarbearclaw View Post
I doubt Mason is really viewed as a nit. He says he would open A9o and A7s from the lowjack (UTG 6 max) which actually seems a bit on the spewy side if anything. Also he probably defends his BB much more than the average nit, and thus will be appearing in too many pots to be viewed as a nit by anyone who plays with him a fair amount.
Have you ever played w Mason?
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:32 PM   #180
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

I am hoping to play with Mason at Bellagio next week. I will report back with my findings if I do.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:39 PM   #181
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

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Originally Posted by bicyclekick View Post
Is mason trolling when he suggests nobody thinks of him as a nit?
Nits don't start playing JJ for 3 bets after 17 years all of the sudden.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:43 PM   #182
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

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Originally Posted by bipolarbearclaw View Post
I doubt Mason is really viewed as a nit.
So confusing why people keep saying this as if there aren't players in this thread who have played with him or talked to others who do.

It's not even a question. He's viewed as a nit.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:47 PM   #183
Brad Childress
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

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Is mason trolling when he suggests nobody thinks of him as a nit?
Mason doesn't troll, he is 100% sincere, for good and bad.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:54 PM   #184
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Here's a fun idea: we can have a private online game and people can stream hands on twitch. Then people can watch the nits vs the lagtards. Could even be lots of interesting spots to discuss. If Mason wants to play, I will also, should be fun

Just to be a good sport of it actually goes and a I win, I'll donate some of the winnings to a charity.
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:16 PM   #185
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

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Originally Posted by ZOMG_RIGGED! View Post
So confusing why people keep saying this as if there aren't players in this thread who have played with him or talked to others who do.

It's not even a question. He's viewed as a nit.
Maybe he has a higher win rate playing like what others refer to as a "nit".
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:25 PM   #186
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

That was my Minnesotan way of saying "my poker group thinks mason is a nit as well as other pros Ive talked to over the years"

It's suuuuuuper bizarre to me that mason doesn't realize this.
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Old 06-10-2016, 06:33 PM   #187
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

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Originally Posted by spaceman View Post
Maybe he has a higher win rate playing like what others refer to as a "nit".
So? The question is "Is he viewed as a nit?" The answer is yes. there is no debate here. He is viewed as a nit
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Old 06-10-2016, 07:39 PM   #188
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

In my experience nits tend to be good players and the ones calling them out are the bad loose players.
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Old 06-10-2016, 08:27 PM   #189
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

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Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
In my experience nits tend to be good players and the ones calling them out are the bad loose players.
Nobody is saying playing right is bad, it's usually the correct way to play. Nor is there anything bad about being called a nit. But it is important to understand how other players view you and if everyone thinks your a super tight player it's important to recognize that (whether it's true or not) rather than disagree with an entire forum of people and tell them how they perceive you is not the correct perception they should have. People have it for a reason.
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Old 06-10-2016, 10:12 PM   #190
Verona
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Why don't you produce your data on this particular hand. I suspect that when analyzed properly, it won't be so convincing either.

Mason
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_locke View Post
right after you produce yours

Both parties claim to have evidence that supports their respective contentions, yet both parties refuse to show it.

Stop and think for a moment how incredibly stupid that is.
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Old 06-10-2016, 10:29 PM   #191
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

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Originally Posted by Verona View Post
Both parties claim to have evidence that supports their respective contentions, yet both parties refuse to show it.

Stop and think for a moment how incredibly stupid that is.
Is there a single post in this thread where anyone has claimed they have any evidence or data that shows AJo is not a winner UTG?

Also basically what ZOMG said. Most of it is on an old hard drive that may or may not still work. I'd have to get it from storage, get it to function correctly, then manually research and input 1000 different results for AJ to get s proper standard deviation to try and prove a result that I already know.

I spent a lot of time going over hands and my data and seeing which hands were profitable in what spots, knowing they would also be profitable live. I'm quite confident AJo was a winner (in the green) for me UTG 9 handed .

Maybe this fee info will be Useful to people or maybe it's worthless. You can choose to ignore it if you want or choose to call it statically insignificant, that's your pergogative. But the info I've laid out is about the max that I care about the subject,

Last edited by Jon_locke; 06-10-2016 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 06-10-2016, 10:43 PM   #192
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verona View Post
Both parties claim to have evidence that supports their respective contentions, yet both parties refuse to show it.

Stop and think for a moment how incredibly stupid that is.
I don't have my own private database. What I do have is the database information that was published in Winning in Tough Poker Games and that has been available for years.

Mason
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Old 06-10-2016, 10:54 PM   #193
Jon_locke
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
The tables in the stock trader book only gives results for up to three positions to the right of the button, and UTG would be 6 positions to the right. So UTG in a full ring game is not given.
.

Mason
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
I don't have my own private database. What I do have is the database information that was published in Winning in Tough Poker Games and that has been available for years.

Mason

this is why it's tough to determine how AJo does UTG and why I tried to offer a overview of my result, as have others.
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Old 06-10-2016, 11:29 PM   #194
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

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Originally Posted by Jon_locke View Post
this is why it's tough to determine how AJo does UTG and why I tried to offer a overview of my result, as have others.
And I've given other reasons to consider even if your data base shows a small profit for this hand UTG. Now just because these other reasons exist, and they are based on statistical and strategic ideas, it doesn't mean that they're enough to make AJo UTG unplayable. But you have yet to address any of them.

MM
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Old 06-10-2016, 11:47 PM   #195
Jon_locke
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
And I've given other reasons to consider even if your data base shows a small profit for this hand UTG. Now just because these other reasons exist, and they are based on statistical and strategic ideas, it doesn't mean that they're enough to make AJo UTG unplayable. But you have yet to address any of them.

MM
I'm sorry, I must have missed them. I'll try to answer honestly, what are the statistical and strategic ideas that make AJo UTG unplayable?
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Old 06-11-2016, 12:52 AM   #196
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Personally, I don't think it makes practical sense spending lots of time arguing over a rare UTG spot that if it's not profitable it can't be that far from it. The only person for whom this may matter a little is the 15 table online multitabler that's playing 1000 hands/hr

For a live player that at best plays 30 hands/hr, worrying about this close spot in an already low % seat is a bit silly. Discussing how wide/tight is opening 97s on the button or folding JJ for 3bets is probably much more important moneywise.
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Old 06-11-2016, 09:34 AM   #197
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
For a live player that at best plays 30 hands/hr, worrying about this close spot
Your argument presumes the conclusion that the spot is 0EV or nearly so.

Last edited by DougL; 06-11-2016 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 06-11-2016, 06:22 PM   #198
Mason Malmuth
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chasqui View Post
Personally, I don't think it makes practical sense spending lots of time arguing over a rare UTG spot that if it's not profitable it can't be that far from it. The only person for whom this may matter a little is the 15 table online multitabler that's playing 1000 hands/hr
Hi Chasqui:

There's much more being addressed as to whether this hand is close to zero EV. The important discussion is how you go about analyzing hands like this, what factors do you consider, what role should a database of a large number of hands play, how the games have changed from a number of years back, how the other players perceive you, and so on.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 06-11-2016, 06:53 PM   #199
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

hi, super interesting thread. I checked my database and im on a new computer so it's a little sparse, but based on my data AJo seems like a clear raise.

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Old 06-11-2016, 07:05 PM   #200
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Re: Jacks for Three Bets

skillgambler bringing the fire
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