Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Mid-High Stakes Limit Discussions of mid-high stakes limit Texas Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-09-2016, 02:36 PM   #126
DougL
Too helpful for this post
 
DougL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 21,743
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
The author's advice was fine, certainly would help the average player
Even without all of the other stuff, the advice in WITHG was before the really good LAGTAGs changed the game. Phillip's books lay out GT thinking, but there hasn't really been a book that encompassed the game even circa 2011 as a general purpose guide to playing online LHE as well as people knew how to play it (that I've read). If someone wanted to start playing online shorthanded, I guess the book you'd point them at would still be WITHG... but you'd give a lot of "follow the general ideas, the modern game is really different" advice. Oh, and tear out the part about FSDR. I'd point them more to videos that you guys did, because that's how I learned (at least almost) to be decent in online games. You could have the best shorthanded LHE book for online play April 1, 2007 and 5 years later the game is going to be quite different. If you're using empirical data for starting hands (especially Euro game hands), there are going to be tough questions about applicability. IIRC, those charts lead to playing like 24/18 in 6m. That's not what the cool kids play these days.

I'm guessing the market for selling high level LHE books is about zero. Otherwise, you'd think you could find a list of geniuses who are willing to share the modern game because they've retired from playing full time. The tag line of "even though the game is solved, you can learn how to make a bit of money" doesn't light up the sales counter.
DougL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 02:36 PM   #127
Montrealcorp
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,399
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
You said this regarding AQo and AJs facing the 9 handed utg open raise:

Yet you claim that you fold these hands, only 3 betting with 99+, AK, AQs. My question is why would you fold if the hand is ev neutral? Seems to me that ev neutral hands can only enhance the profitability of the rest of your range.

Story time:

A few years ago, I found myself focusing too much on winning money and not having as much fun as I did in years past. So I put fun at the top of my list of motivations for playing that year. If I had what I thought was a close decision between raising or folding preflop, I raised. If I had what I thought was a close decision between folding or calling postflop, I called, and so on.

I had more fun than ever that year at the poker table, and I even won a little money.

Now, winning money is back at the top of my list, with having fun being a close second. However, I'll always look back with nothing but good feelings about that year that I had more fun than ever at the poker table.

Maybe you missed it but i think Mason already answered this :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Now if you choose to play a few more hands than this or a few less, it should have virtually no impact on your overall expectation. But your standard deviation should go up which may explain why your standard deviation (if I remember correctly) is so much higher than mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Assuming you're adequately bank rolled that's what you're supposed to do. I also agree that in the games you describe, playing these hands won't hurt your long term expectation. So assuming I'm right and you don't object to the swings, playing them won't hurt you. But on the chance you may be correct (instead of me) and they'll raise your long term expectation up some amount, again there is certainly nothing wrong in playing them.

Best wishes,
Mason
I bold the little in your post because if i understood exactly what Mason said, maybe you only did a little money overall because the ev neutral hand went slightly negative due to the short term luck factor .
But at least you had more fun.

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 06-09-2016 at 02:51 PM.
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 03:13 PM   #128
Montrealcorp
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,399
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

What i conclude about this stuff is, if you run good play more ev neutral hands because the other players should react scared a bit more vs you and play slightly worst ( bluff catching less or not bluffing in spot they should when you check for example), so you would gain a bit more ev overall.
While if you run bad you should discard the neutral ev hands because players would see this and try play back at you a bit more, making ev neutral played more difficult and it should cost you some ev.... i think .

This is why i probably run bad a lot when i tilt .. i play more neutral ev hands to try to get my money back, increasing my standard deviation ( which if i loose , and should happen even more often , i would go up in stakes with an even smaller win rate lol..) when i should not !
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 03:17 PM   #129
CrazyLond
veteran
 
CrazyLond's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,694
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Talking about tilt in a thread with MM is asking for trouble.
CrazyLond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 04:06 PM   #130
Jon_locke
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,180
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
What i conclude about this stuff is, if you run good play more ev neutral hands because the other players should react scared a bit more vs you and play slightly worst ( bluff catching less or not bluffing in spot they should when you check for example), so you would gain a bit more ev overall.
!
Mason thinks AJo UTG is EV neutral. I think hes wrong. I don't find his evidence a book from 8 years ago says so, is convincing.
Jon_locke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 04:30 PM   #131
Montrealcorp
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,399
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_locke View Post
Mason thinks AJo UTG is EV neutral. I think hes wrong. I don't find his evidence a book from 8 years ago says so, is convincing.
Well like he said, nvm AJo and just put ATo.
Seem tho his point is valid as to when we talk about hands that are slightly above zero ev, we could say those hands are at the threshold of being optimal due to the short term luck factor.
And has a lot of GTO player says often ( even Newall wrote it in his second book), the best hand to play exploitative is the one near the threshold hands.

So in good game you play it and bad game you do not seem about right and if you run good, might take the advantage from it in either games.

Seem AJo is like that for the 2 of view and probably both of you are right.

i am not good in statistics but surely there is way to make a calculation and try to find a 95% interval confidence to say if AJo is profitable or not.
Seem like Mason point it it would be almost impossible anway to have such a database to reach a confidence that high.

And even than it might not even be a great deal because if the best player can play AJo with a profit, it might not be based on the hand value itself but because the players are great while a decent player would loose money with it...

That is usually what happen with a hand that has like 0 ev .

I might be wrong because i am not a math guy but this is how i understand it.
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 04:44 PM   #132
DougL
Too helpful for this post
 
DougL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 21,743
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Mason thinks AJo UTG is EV neutral. I think hes wrong. I don't find his evidence a book from 8 years ago says so, is convincing.
Out of curiosity, what does your DB say?

I checked mine. In limits between .5/1 and 10/20, I played AJo 88% of the time in EP. I played ATo less often (don't recall when I switched). In 420 hands, I won 75bb/100 with Ax (any A that was AJo or worse) played in EP at a 9 or 10 handed table. My big DB is in HEM1, so I'm not sure how to filter for exactly UTG. ATo wasn't that much less profitable than AJo. In my sample, these hands are hugely profitable. Proof? Not really. Evidence is that playing them was fine.
Quote:
Well like he said, nvm AJo and just put ATo.
Based on my DB, I wished I had played ATo more. It wasn't 0EV, and it wasn't close. Could be the times I added ATo were in games where my EP raises were getting through, but no need to throw 75bb/100 on the floor. Granted, these are small samples. For a while I was game starting as many 5/T games as I could and playing hands for volume (no game selection), so tough games don't seem to crush these hands as much as I'd have expected.
Quote:
Seem like Mason point it it would be almost impossible anway to have such a database to reach a confidence that high.
There exist in the world 5 and 10 million hand databases from SNE grinders, so multiple millions of hands were played in the same year. You'd have to do some math-proving to say that those are insignificant samples. People who played that much tended to play more the same over time than a lot of people.

Last edited by DougL; 06-09-2016 at 04:49 PM.
DougL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 04:48 PM   #133
Jon_locke
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,180
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
Well like he said, nvm AJo and just put ATo.
Seem tho his point is valid as to when we talk about hands that are slightly above zero ev, we could say those hands are at the threshold of being optimal due to the short term luck factor.
If i offered you 55-45 on a coin flip would you say no, because you can't tell if its a profitable spot or not because of the short term luck factor.

Or would you say a ran 2 million simulations and concluded that a coin flips is 50-50 so if Take 55-45 I'm going to make money, the short term luck factor is irrelevant.
Jon_locke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 04:53 PM   #134
Jon_locke
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,180
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
Out of curiosity, what does your DB say?
I looked at a small one I had on a laptop and was around 20bb/100 on a database where I was -40k overall. Not a massive sample but taken with knowing that AJo is green on my big one, I feel pretty good playing it.

Lets also remember these hands will do even better playing in live time raked games than online games that were raked $1-3 a hand when there was a flop. If you win a big pot live vs a big pot at 3-6 you are going to win 1/2 big bet more.
Jon_locke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 05:10 PM   #135
Montrealcorp
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Montrealcorp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,399
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_locke View Post

Or would you say a ran 2 million simulations and concluded that a coin flips is 50-50 so if Take 55-45 I'm going to make money, the short term luck factor is irrelevant.

So you are saying AJo is profitable on a 2 millions try data base ?
And do not forget, like Mason said and the reason of this thread, game condition changes...

Players get better all the time or maybe the holder of the AJo is much better than the average joe who would loose money with AJo too...

I mean pretty obvious no one loose money with AA,KK,etc in EP but certainly AJo is not in the same range .

So maybe a lot of that sample came from very good games that do not exist anymore if it is too far in the past too.

fwiw, here about 6 max in though game, right ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by piranha View Post

As an example, I open 19% of my starting hands from UTG in a typical 6-max game. I know my range consists of the following hands: 55+ AT+ A2s+ K9s+ KJ+ QJ Q9s+ J9s+ T8s 97s, 87s, 76s
So ok ATo is there but we speak FR right ?
In a tough game , would AJo be there ?
Maybe but it would actually be at his bottom range for sure no ?

ps: i am not trying to be a dick or w.e btw, i just tend to agree with mason that if it is a very close decision, it should be very difficult to be sure it is in fact a winning hand.
If you are very sure it is a winning hand by far well hey good for you but maybe it is not a winning hand for everyone tho, that should be taking into consideration i think as well because like you said, it is slightly profitable for you and you play great.

I mean take a racing car like in formule 1, true the car ( or the hand like AJo) as value in it self but the driver still have a say in it.

Probably bad analogy but anyway

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 06-09-2016 at 05:15 PM.
Montrealcorp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 05:27 PM   #136
Jon_locke
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,180
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
Players get better all the time
they dont when they cant play online anymore. the games i played in 5 years ago were significantly harder than the games i play in now
Jon_locke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 06:02 PM   #137
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 11,331
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Hi DougL:

You wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
Some of us might or might not have done the grind of many tables of mid-stakes FR games in order to achieve milestones on Stars. This may (or may not) have lead to having sadly large FR samples. Was Stars 10 handed, even? I don't recall. Were I to bring up that computer, I might have 10K-20K hands UTG FR. Real SNE grinders might well have 200K-500K samples. I can think of one person who made SNE multiple years on the FR grind, if you really wanted big samples. Those games don't exist any more, but if we're willing to accept that no live game is as tough when it comes to getting correctly 3 bet, these big samples might show evidence that some hand (say AJo) is wildly profitable even in those games and thus should never be folded.
Okay.

Quote:
Freteloo had some interesting thoughts along those lines. He set out to intuit his own hand ranges PF, by using data and some common sense. His argument was about using common sense and hands that run close in value to smooth out variations in smaller samples. So you know before the fact that AQo > AJo > ATo (but close to each other). In your 50 hands of each in EP, AQo is a tiny loser and both AJo and ATo are decently profitable. Rather than waiting for 5K samples to start smoothing things out, you either assume (or look for evidence) that you ran slightly bad with AQ and move on to believing all 3 hands are profitable.
I think this is reasonable.

Quote:
With bigger samples, I think you could look at the worst hands you play in each category. If they are slightly unprofitable, you have evidence that you're playing too many hands. If all of your worst hands are still clearly profitable, there are likely nearby hands that you're incorrectly folding.
I agree,

Quote:
I think you can also use UTG+1 data to help bolster UTG, with some common sense. Again, small samples mean you can't just look at raw data.
I agree but small samples may be much larger than you think since you're trying to see if a hand is slightly profitable when the individual results for each played hand can actually be quite large.

Quote:
Applying "common sense" allows bias to creep in.
This is an important point.

Quote:
However, the method of actively considering ranges based on data shouldn't require 50K samples of every hand value in every position before drawing any conclusion.
Yes but we're most interested in those hands which we think are close to begin with. This says to me that for these hands you'll need a larger saample size than most people will think is correct.

Quote:
I'll guess that ~1BB/100 winners who always played AJo UTG in "tough" games did fine with the hand. Well, we get a given hand UTG 1/1000 times. So for every 1K sample of a given hand in a given position, we need 1 million hands. With some supporting data of equivalent hands and nearby position, you could live with less... How big a sample do you want?
The data and the computed estimated standard deviation should answer this question which is why I asked JL to produce his data for one of these close hands.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 06:05 PM   #138
Jon_locke
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,180
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
The data and the computed estimated standard deviation should answer this question which is why I asked JL to produce his data for one of these close hands.

Best wishes,
Mason
can you produce any data that says AJo is not profitable UTG?


I'm not going to look up, search and then manually input the results of over 1,000 unique hands. Its to time consuming and I don't care enough.

Mason to give you an estimate of my sample, when I played FR online I estimate I was dealt AJo UTG once per hour. I think this will work out to a large enough sample compared to live where you will likely be in the same spot maybee 1-2 times a week

Last edited by Jon_locke; 06-09-2016 at 06:10 PM.
Jon_locke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 06:09 PM   #139
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 11,331
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
You said this regarding AQo and AJs facing the 9 handed utg open raise:

Yet you claim that you fold these hands, only 3 betting with 99+, AK, AQs. My question is why would you fold if the hand is ev neutral? Seems to me that ev neutral hands can only enhance the profitability of the rest of your range.
Hi Bob:

This is an argument that a lot of people make and it's consistent with our "playing fast" comments in HPFAP. However, I also think there is value in having a tight image in limit hold 'em.

In addition, there may be another issue. It has always been my suspicion, that some seemingly marginal hands which appear to either have small positive expectation or small negative expectation, but you don't know which, tend to have either a small positive expectation or a higher negative expectation, but you don't know which. I can't prove this but it is consistent with my philosophy of a good statistician tries to error on the conservative side.

Quote:
Story time:

A few years ago, I found myself focusing too much on winning money and not having as much fun as I did in years past. So I put fun at the top of my list of motivations for playing that year. If I had what I thought was a close decision between raising or folding preflop, I raised. If I had what I thought was a close decision between folding or calling postflop, I called, and so on.

I had more fun than ever that year at the poker table, and I even won a little money.

Now, winning money is back at the top of my list, with having fun being a close second. However, I'll always look back with nothing but good feelings about that year that I had more fun than ever at the poker table.
People play poker for different reasons and now that I'm semi-retired playing for fun is important to me. But I have always found winning to be more fun than losing, and the more I win the more fun it is. But perhaps that's just me.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 06:28 PM   #140
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 11,331
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey View Post
Mason, I think it is a bad idea to tout "winning in tough Holdem games" very highly. The author's advice was fine, certainly would help the average player, but his databases that are included and show the profitability of hands came from his play on very soft European sports betting sites that happened to have poker games. Of course there were some strong players as well but he was primarily playing in what would be a berry patch at any stakes.
I don't agree and this is a subject we at 2+2 have given much thought. My reasons are as follows:

1. While no-limit hold 'em is definitely contracting, I think the opposite is true of limit hold 'em even though there are still far more no-limit games than limit games. That is in the games I play in, which is mostly the $20-$40 limit hold 'em at The Bellagio, I'm constantly looking at semi-novice players, and this effect seems to be increased with the influx of all the WSOP players currently in town. So if their database reflects weak players, that should be fine for the large majority of players who want to read this book.

Quote:
More importantly the same author was later outed and shunned from these forums for multi accounting, short stacking, rat holing, and colluding with his friend in NL Holdem games on poker stars and full tilt.
2. I agree that this was disturbing, but there is also a co-author on the book who was never criticized in this manner. So is it fair to hurt him? In addition, there is also a publishing company involved, us at 2+2, and we never did anything wrong and I believe we acted properly when these allegations came to light. So is it fair to hurt us as well? But just so you know, Winning in Tough Hold 'em Games is currently a small seller and limit hold 'em would have to grow a lot from its current state for this to change.

3. And finally, I think it's a very good book that has a lot to offer beginning and intermediate players who want to improve their games. Of course that's just my opinion, but is it fair not to let these people know that this book is available where instead they might purchase something much inferior?

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 06:36 PM   #141
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 11,331
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Hi Montrealcorp:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealcorp View Post
What i conclude about this stuff is, if you run good play more ev neutral hands because the other players should react scared a bit more vs you and play slightly worst ( bluff catching less or not bluffing in spot they should when you check for example), so you would gain a bit more ev overall.
While if you run bad you should discard the neutral ev hands because players would see this and try play back at you a bit more, making ev neutral played more difficult and it should cost you some ev.... i think .
This has always been the standard idea that has been around a long time and I think it does have value. But I also think that having a tight image has value when playing limit hold 'em.

Quote:
This is why i probably run bad a lot when i tilt .. i play more neutral ev hands to try to get my money back, increasing my standard deviation ( which if i loose , and should happen even more often , i would go up in stakes with an even smaller win rate lol..) when i should not !
Okay. But keep in mind that most people who tilt tend to play more hands than just the EV neutral ones.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 06:37 PM   #142
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 11,331
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_locke View Post
Mason thinks AJo UTG is EV neutral. I think hes wrong. I don't find his evidence a book from 8 years ago says so, is convincing.
Why don't you produce your data on this particular hand. I suspect that when analyzed properly, it won't be so convincing either.

Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 06:57 PM   #143
Jon_locke
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,180
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Why don't you produce your data on this particular hand. I suspect that when analyzed properly, it won't be so convincing either.

Mason
right after you produce yours
Jon_locke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 07:52 PM   #144
spaceman
grinder
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 429
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
Some of us might or might not have done the grind of many tables of mid-stakes FR games in order to achieve milestones on Stars. This may (or may not) have lead to having sadly large FR samples. Was Stars 10 handed, even? I don't recall. Were I to bring up that computer, I might have 10K-20K hands UTG FR. Real SNE grinders might well have 200K-500K samples. I can think of one person who made SNE multiple years on the FR grind, if you really wanted big samples. Those games don't exist any more, but if we're willing to accept that no live game is as tough when it comes to getting correctly 3 bet, these big samples might show evidence that some hand (say AJo) is wildly profitable even in those games and thus should never be folded.

Freteloo had some interesting thoughts along those lines. He set out to intuit his own hand ranges PF, by using data and some common sense. His argument was about using common sense and hands that run close in value to smooth out variations in smaller samples. So you know before the fact that AQo > AJo > ATo (but close to each other). In your 50 hands of each in EP, AQo is a tiny loser and both AJo and ATo are decently profitable. Rather than waiting for 5K samples to start smoothing things out, you either assume (or look for evidence) that you ran slightly bad with AQ and move on to believing all 3 hands are profitable.

With bigger samples, I think you could look at the worst hands you play in each category. If they are slightly unprofitable, you have evidence that you're playing too many hands. If all of your worst hands are still clearly profitable, there are likely nearby hands that you're incorrectly folding. I think you can also use UTG+1 data to help bolster UTG, with some common sense. Again, small samples mean you can't just look at raw data. Applying "common sense" allows bias to creep in. However, the method of actively considering ranges based on data shouldn't require 50K samples of every hand value in every position before drawing any conclusion.

I'll guess that ~1BB/100 winners who always played AJo UTG in "tough" games did fine with the hand. Well, we get a given hand UTG 1/1000 times. So for every 1K sample of a given hand in a given position, we need 1 million hands. With some supporting data of equivalent hands and nearby position, you could live with less... How big a sample do you want?
I'm not sure I understand, but are you saying there is really no difference between 6 max and full ring, and opening AJ utg and even A10 should be profitable for good players in full ring?
spaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 08:18 PM   #145
Jon_locke
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,180
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

ATo and AJo is basically the same hand since AJ won't 3 bet Us so At and AJ basically ha e same equity vs AK and AQ. The only difference is AJ does much better vs TT
Jon_locke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 08:36 PM   #146
Schneids
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: @schneidspoker
Posts: 7,411
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post

I'm guessing the market for selling high level LHE books is about zero. Otherwise, you'd think you could find a list of geniuses who are willing to share the modern game because they've retired from playing full time. The tag line of "even though the game is solved, you can learn how to make a bit of money" doesn't light up the sales counter.
I've been sitting on about 220 pages in Word for like 6+ years.

I'm going to keep playing AJo UTG, if there are games out there that I shouldn't be, I'll probably quit playing LHE entirely.
Schneids is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 08:39 PM   #147
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 13,407
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Didn't Doyle Brunson say in his book that if you don't think you can play AJ under the gun profitably in your game, you should find another game? Guess he was probably talking about NL, but I think the same thing applies to LHE.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 09:00 PM   #148
Old Ghost
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 57
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

so i wanted to contribute to this but its amazing how few times you actually are dealt a specific hand in a specific position. Anyway here goes.

Stars fullring, 2012-2014, 430k hands.
I'm including utg and utg+1 as stars is 10 handed.
32,262 hands in those 2 spots, .06 bb/hand won
Dealt AJ off 305 times, played it 97% utg and 79% utg+1 (I honestly can't explain this other than I prob had decisions on a few other tables at once and decided to fold a marginal hand) I was in the green, but obv meaningless over 300 hands.
I was dealt A10o 291 times and played it 3 times
Old Ghost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 09:08 PM   #149
phunkphish
veteran
 
phunkphish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,902
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

-Whats is the worst Ace people are opening UTG 6max? Mine is ATo.
-Add in 3 or 4 players, I would side with Mason that you should easily ditch ATo and probably AJo, too.

PS 9handed and 10handed games are very dull in the early positions.
phunkphish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2016, 09:16 PM   #150
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 13,407
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Ghost View Post
Dealt AJ off 305 times, played it 97% utg and 79% utg+1 (I honestly can't explain this other than I prob had decisions on a few other tables at once and decided to fold a marginal hand)
I think this is likely easy to explain; you played it less often utg+1 because sometimes the guy utg open raised so you folded.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online