Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Mid-High Stakes Limit Discussions of mid-high stakes limit Texas Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-08-2016, 06:10 PM   #51
OnTheRail15
Pooh-Bah
 
OnTheRail15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 4,339
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi Rail:

No one views me this way,
You are incorrect.
OnTheRail15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 06:15 PM   #52
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 11,333
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLond View Post
It sounds like I should probably drop KQo, KTs and QTs. I was already considering dropping KQo from my utg range.
Hi Crazy:

In a full nine handed ring game, I don't play any of these hands UTG. However, once two people have passed (or the game is only seven handed), I raise first in with all of them (and never limp).

Typical games today are much more aggressive than what they once were, and if you were to follow the advice in HPFAP today's typical game would be considered a tough game as far as that book goes (because of the increased aggressiveness).

By the way, and this is my opinion, even though the games are tougher than they once were, if you read and study Winning in Tough Hold 'em Games by Grudzien and Herzog and The Intelligent Poker Player by Philip Newall along with HPFAP, your win rate should be higher than ever (and this takes into account the increased rake).

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 06:28 PM   #53
phunkphish
veteran
 
phunkphish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,902
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
...As for your specific hands, ATo, KJs, 77, even if you're correct, they can only be slightly profitable...
I'll jump in to defend Mason. I agree that if I was playing my A-game, I'd easily fold ATo and 77 UTG 9 handed. KJ is closer but still a fold in raked games. That said, most games worth playing in 9handed are full of bad players, so playing these hands would be ok, though ATo is still garbage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLond View Post
This is important but your own position is also important.

I think utg+1 vs. utg, AQo should be folded against many players even in today's games. But should be 3 bet from button as a pretty standard line.
This is a good point.
phunkphish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 06:36 PM   #54
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Bob148's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: scattar branez at work
Posts: 10,822
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

I'm reminded of the chapter from "The Intelligent Poker Player" on 3 betting light in multiway games. If I knew that the rest of the nine handed table would fold JJ to my utg raise and utg+1's 3 bet, I'd probably open wider than default. Also, I'd hope that the 3 bettor also knew this so he would 3 bet wider. If I knew that the rest of the table would 4 bet JJ to my utg raise and utg+1's 3 bet, then I'd keep playing my default range.

Because of this, I believe the fold of JJ vs that action to be exploitive and the 4 bet of JJ vs that action to be standard.

Don't take it from me though as I've only played a few hours of 20.

----

If I remember correctly, A9o was considered a junk hand that shouldn't be played according to HPFAP.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 06:47 PM   #55
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 11,333
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
I'll jump in to defend Mason. I agree that if I was playing my A-game, I'd easily fold ATo and 77 UTG 9 handed.
Hi phunkphish:

This is another issue and gets into my psychology stuff, but why would you ever not play your A game? Are you saying that you sometimes come to the poker room and will make plays that you know are wrong? Notice that this is different from being on tilt or one of the other states that players can go into which will affect their play.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 06:48 PM   #56
6MaxLHE
old hand
 
6MaxLHE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Planet Parx
Posts: 1,869
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

If you are folding AJo UTG or folding AQo or JJ pre for 3 bets why even play? These hands have enough equity in today's games that folding any of them for less than two bets is clearly -EV.

Unless obviously if you hold AJo against an EP raiser, in which case I would fold to a tight player's open.

Last edited by 6MaxLHE; 06-08-2016 at 06:57 PM.
6MaxLHE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 06:50 PM   #57
Jon_locke
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,180
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
No. You're completely wrong on No. 1. My three betting range should have a lot to do with what I think your opening range would be and to a lessor degree how well I think you play from the flop on, and based on this thread, my three betting range, given what you have stated about your opening range, should be wide enough for the pair of jacks to play.


Best wishes,
Mason
For arguments sake lets assume my opening range is what it should be and postlfop I play better than you,

Last edited by Jon_locke; 06-08-2016 at 07:01 PM.
Jon_locke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 07:09 PM   #58
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 11,333
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_locke View Post
For arguments sake lets assume my opening range is what it should be and postlfop I play better than you,
But according to you I don't know what the opening range should be and don't play well after the flop, so virtually everyone plays better than I do. So what's your point?

MM
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 07:12 PM   #59
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 13,407
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

I think JL means, if he raised UTG, and you thought he had a solid opening range and played well after the flop, but you still reraised him, what should someone behind you with a paid of Jacks do?
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 07:13 PM   #60
dinesh
Pooh-Bah
 
dinesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,608
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Part of the reason for my thinking is that years ago, when I worked for the US Census Bureau,
Random aside, but I just started a new gig at USCB!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
No one views me this way, and that's because I raise limpers more than most players, I three bet more than most players, I defend out of the big blind more than most players, and I never chop the blinds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRail15 View Post
You are incorrect.
Just one data point, but I've only played against MM maybe a half dozen times, and I would say I had him categorized as TAG within a session. not nitty exactly, but snug. Especially when opening in EP.
dinesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 07:23 PM   #61
ZOMG_RIGGED!
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ZOMG_RIGGED!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: now with friendly emoticons!
Posts: 17,504
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Mason is viewed as a nit. The reasons he listed as to why he thinks he isn't are even more fascinating than the fact he doesn't realize it though
ZOMG_RIGGED! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 07:26 PM   #62
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 11,333
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
I think JL means, if he raised UTG, and you thought he had a solid opening range and played well after the flop, but you still reraised him, what should someone behind you with a paid of Jacks do?
Hi chillrob:

I would have to form an opinion as to how tight I think his opening range is and whether I should adjust from my standard default opening range for what I use for most players.

If JL wanted to list an opening range, I could then quickly tell you what my 3-bet range would be, and from that we can quickly decide whether it becomes correct to play a pair of jacks. I use the Equilab program and all of this can be done in just a few minutes once I know the opening range.

Now with this said, from how I understand what JL has written, his UTG opening range should be wide enough that it would be correct to play jacks after I 3-bet.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 07:36 PM   #63
Bob148
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Bob148's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: scattar branez at work
Posts: 10,822
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

If I open 77+, AJo+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs utg 9 handed, then Mason 3 bets 99+, AQo+, AJs+ from utg+1, I think it's correct for the next guy to 4 bet JJ+, AK.
Bob148 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 07:43 PM   #64
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 13,407
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

I guess everyone has a different definition of what a nit means. Some people here have called me a nit, but I think that was mostly because I said I didn't like having my BB straddled, and because I am picky about rules in the live poker forum. I usually play about the same range in EP as CrazyLond though, so maybe I also need to tighten up.

When I think of someone who is nitty, I think of the guys who don't like to play shorthanded (even with 6 handed), which annoys me and the fishy players by often breaking a game. I have never heard a fishy player complain about anyone for playing too tightly. Personally I like it when I'm playing with a few guys who are too tight preflop; I then have a better idea of their range, and they're not in many of the pots, allowing me to play more pots with the loose bad players.

Last edited by chillrob; 06-08-2016 at 07:49 PM.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 07:46 PM   #65
CrazyLond
veteran
 
CrazyLond's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,694
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

I definitely tend to have a loose image compared with most solid players I would say.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
CrazyLond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 08:06 PM   #66
OnTheRail15
Pooh-Bah
 
OnTheRail15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Somewhere else
Posts: 4,339
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by dinesh View Post
Random aside, but I just started a new gig at USCB!





Just one data point, but I've only played against MM maybe a half dozen times, and I would say I had him categorized as TAG within a session. not nitty exactly, but snug. Especially when opening in EP.
You are the first person I've ever heard (who has played w Mason) describe him as anything but a massive nit. That is why he is certainly incorrect when he says that no one views him that way.
OnTheRail15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 08:09 PM   #67
Verona
centurion
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Galveston
Posts: 138
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_locke View Post
Well the of debate makes the oOP more
Interesting now.

(1) I open UTG, Mason 3 bets and you have JJ.....
(2) Mason opens UTG. I 3 bet and you have JJ.....

The 1999 advise may be correct here as they appear to be easy folds
I'd probably fold, but I'm a nit.

Although I do like to raise 54s and other little gambooolers UTG in live 9-handed games.
Verona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 08:12 PM   #68
Verona
centurion
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Galveston
Posts: 138
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRail15 View Post
You are the first person I've ever heard (who has played w Mason) describe him as anything but a massive nit. That is why he is certainly incorrect when he says that no one views him that way.
Maybe he means that no one who matters views him that way.

What I mean is, as long as the fish at the table view him as an action player why should his image matter? Should he care what a bunch of players he has a minimal, if any, edge against think of him? He's not there to take their money anyway, right?
Verona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 08:15 PM   #69
Verona
centurion
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Galveston
Posts: 138
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLond View Post
It sounds like I should probably drop KQo
I'd raise those babies.
Verona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 08:29 PM   #70
Jon_locke
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 4,180
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

my UTG range depends on a lot of factors, how many drinks have I had, do I find the BB annoying and it humors me to open UTG more, how bored am I at the table and other standard factors.


If I found myself in a very tough game I would likely open AJo+, 88+, KQs+.
While it may surprise you when I played online FR, I played extremely tight in EP and basically played the above range (still got snap 3 bet by A-10+ daily).... But in a live game where I have 6 people ready to snap cold call J-10+ its gonna be very hard to convince me to fold ATo and KQo
Jon_locke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 08:34 PM   #71
Mason Malmuth
Top Dog
 
Mason Malmuth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: @MasonMalmuth
Posts: 11,333
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
If I open 77+, AJo+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs utg 9 handed, then Mason 3 bets 99+, AQo+, AJs+ from utg+1, I think it's correct for the next guy to 4 bet JJ+, AK.
Hi Bob:

With this opening range you're playing 8.45 percent of the hands which in my opinion is somewhat tight for the players that I play against where I assume 10 to 12 percent UTG.

With your opening range, 99 is 47.27 percent which in my mind puts it right on the borderline or slightly above it, so I would play 99. AQo is 46.52 percent which in my mind puts it slightly under the borderline but if you choose to play it, it won't matter. AJs is 42.16 percent which I would now not play. So against this opening range I would recommend 3-betting with 99+, AKo, AQs+, but if you used 99+, AQo+, AQs+ it shouldn't make any difference, and since there are only four combinations of AJs adding them in won't matter much either.

And the answer is with your 3-betting range jacks would win 43.63 percent which would certainly make them correct to play. With my 3-betting range, jacks would win 43.64 percent which is essentially the same thing and thus should be played.

So again, the initial players need to be tighter to make throwing jacks away correct.

To see this, suppose you used the opening UTG range from Winning in Tough Hold 'em Games of 88+, ATs+, AQo+, KQs which is 6.49 percent of the hands. Now the appropriate 3-betting range should be TT+, AKs, AKo. (Note AQs only wins 44.07 percent.)

Now jacks wins at 31.04 percent and probably should not be played.

There also should be a qualifier here. Because there is additional blind money, it's clear that you should 3-bet with hands which are a little under 50 percent but exactly where that cut-off should be is debatable, and many factors should come into play. So someone else may feel that going to lower percentages on your 3-betting hands is fine, and there is really no way to dispute that.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason Malmuth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 08:37 PM   #72
Verona
centurion
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Galveston
Posts: 138
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post

And the answer is with your 3-betting range jacks would win 43.63 percent
This assumes all hands show down, correct?
Verona is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 08:44 PM   #73
ZOMG_RIGGED!
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ZOMG_RIGGED!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: now with friendly emoticons!
Posts: 17,504
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verona View Post
Maybe he means that no one who matters views him that way.

What I mean is, as long as the fish at the table view him as an action player why should his image matter? Should he care what a bunch of players he has a minimal, if any, edge against think of him? He's not there to take their money anyway, right?
Except it very much matters how the better players view you at the table
ZOMG_RIGGED! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 08:54 PM   #74
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 13,407
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

Well, shouldn't it be good for you if the better players in the game view you as a nit?

It should allow you to bluff them out of some pots, and they'll be more likely to get out of your way when you're trying to isolate a loose player preflop.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2016, 09:09 PM   #75
ZOMG_RIGGED!
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ZOMG_RIGGED!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: now with friendly emoticons!
Posts: 17,504
Re: Jacks for Three Bets

In order to take advantage of a nit perception, you have to be aware that you're perceived as a nit
ZOMG_RIGGED! is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online