You are incorrect.

Hi Crazy:

In a full nine handed ring game, I don't play any of these hands UTG. However, once two people have passed (or the game is only seven handed), I raise first in with all of them (and never limp).

Typical games today are much more aggressive than what they once were, and if you were to follow the advice in HPFAP today's typical game would be considered a tough game as far as that book goes (because of the increased aggressiveness).

By the way, and this is my opinion, even though the games are tougher than they once were, if you read and study Winning in Tough Hold 'em Games by Grudzien and Herzog and The Intelligent Poker Player by Philip Newall along with HPFAP, your win rate should be higher than ever (and this takes into account the increased rake).

Best wishes,
Mason

I'll jump in to defend Mason. I agree that if I was playing my A-game, I'd easily fold ATo and 77 UTG 9 handed. KJ is closer but still a fold in raked games. That said, most games worth playing in 9handed are full of bad players, so playing these hands would be ok, though ATo is still garbage.

This is a good point.

I'm reminded of the chapter from "The Intelligent Poker Player" on 3 betting light in multiway games. If I knew that the rest of the nine handed table would fold JJ to my utg raise and utg+1's 3 bet, I'd probably open wider than default. Also, I'd hope that the 3 bettor also knew this so he would 3 bet wider. If I knew that the rest of the table would 4 bet JJ to my utg raise and utg+1's 3 bet, then I'd keep playing my default range.

Because of this, I believe the fold of JJ vs that action to be exploitive and the 4 bet of JJ vs that action to be standard.

Don't take it from me though as I've only played a few hours of 20.

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If I remember correctly, A9o was considered a junk hand that shouldn't be played according to HPFAP.

Hi phunkphish:

This is another issue and gets into my psychology stuff, but why would you ever not play your A game? Are you saying that you sometimes come to the poker room and will make plays that you know are wrong? Notice that this is different from being on tilt or one of the other states that players can go into which will affect their play.

Best wishes,
Mason

If you are folding AJo UTG or folding AQo or JJ pre for 3 bets why even play? These hands have enough equity in today's games that folding any of them for less than two bets is clearly -EV.

Unless obviously if you hold AJo against an EP raiser, in which case I would fold to a tight player's open.

For arguments sake lets assume my opening range is what it should be and postlfop I play better than you,

But according to you I don't know what the opening range should be and don't play well after the flop, so virtually everyone plays better than I do. So what's your point?

MM

I think JL means, if he raised UTG, and you thought he had a solid opening range and played well after the flop, but you still reraised him, what should someone behind you with a paid of Jacks do?

Random aside, but I just started a new gig at USCB!

Just one data point, but I've only played against MM maybe a half dozen times, and I would say I had him categorized as TAG within a session. not nitty exactly, but snug. Especially when opening in EP.

Mason is viewed as a nit. The reasons he listed as to why he thinks he isn't are even more fascinating than the fact he doesn't realize it though

Hi chillrob:

I would have to form an opinion as to how tight I think his opening range is and whether I should adjust from my standard default opening range for what I use for most players.

If JL wanted to list an opening range, I could then quickly tell you what my 3-bet range would be, and from that we can quickly decide whether it becomes correct to play a pair of jacks. I use the Equilab program and all of this can be done in just a few minutes once I know the opening range.

Now with this said, from how I understand what JL has written, his UTG opening range should be wide enough that it would be correct to play jacks after I 3-bet.

Best wishes,
Mason

If I open 77+, AJo+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs utg 9 handed, then Mason 3 bets 99+, AQo+, AJs+ from utg+1, I think it's correct for the next guy to 4 bet JJ+, AK.

I guess everyone has a different definition of what a nit means. Some people here have called me a nit, but I think that was mostly because I said I didn't like having my BB straddled, and because I am picky about rules in the live poker forum. I usually play about the same range in EP as CrazyLond though, so maybe I also need to tighten up.

When I think of someone who is nitty, I think of the guys who don't like to play shorthanded (even with 6 handed), which annoys me and the fishy players by often breaking a game. I have never heard a fishy player complain about anyone for playing too tightly. Personally I like it when I'm playing with a few guys who are too tight preflop; I then have a better idea of their range, and they're not in many of the pots, allowing me to play more pots with the loose bad players.

I definitely tend to have a loose image compared with most solid players I would say.

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You are the first person I've ever heard (who has played w Mason) describe him as anything but a massive nit. That is why he is certainly incorrect when he says that no one views him that way.

I'd probably fold, but I'm a nit.

Although I do like to raise 54s and other little gambooolers UTG in live 9-handed games.

Maybe he means that no one who matters views him that way.

What I mean is, as long as the fish at the table view him as an action player why should his image matter? Should he care what a bunch of players he has a minimal, if any, edge against think of him? He's not there to take their money anyway, right?

I'd raise those babies.

my UTG range depends on a lot of factors, how many drinks have I had, do I find the BB annoying and it humors me to open UTG more, how bored am I at the table and other standard factors.


If I found myself in a very tough game I would likely open AJo+, 88+, KQs+.
While it may surprise you when I played online FR, I played extremely tight in EP and basically played the above range (still got snap 3 bet by A-10+ daily).... But in a live game where I have 6 people ready to snap cold call J-10+ its gonna be very hard to convince me to fold ATo and KQo

Hi Bob:

With this opening range you're playing 8.45 percent of the hands which in my opinion is somewhat tight for the players that I play against where I assume 10 to 12 percent UTG.

With your opening range, 99 is 47.27 percent which in my mind puts it right on the borderline or slightly above it, so I would play 99. AQo is 46.52 percent which in my mind puts it slightly under the borderline but if you choose to play it, it won't matter. AJs is 42.16 percent which I would now not play. So against this opening range I would recommend 3-betting with 99+, AKo, AQs+, but if you used 99+, AQo+, AQs+ it shouldn't make any difference, and since there are only four combinations of AJs adding them in won't matter much either.

And the answer is with your 3-betting range jacks would win 43.63 percent which would certainly make them correct to play. With my 3-betting range, jacks would win 43.64 percent which is essentially the same thing and thus should be played.

So again, the initial players need to be tighter to make throwing jacks away correct.

To see this, suppose you used the opening UTG range from Winning in Tough Hold 'em Games of 88+, ATs+, AQo+, KQs which is 6.49 percent of the hands. Now the appropriate 3-betting range should be TT+, AKs, AKo. (Note AQs only wins 44.07 percent.)

Now jacks wins at 31.04 percent and probably should not be played.

There also should be a qualifier here. Because there is additional blind money, it's clear that you should 3-bet with hands which are a little under 50 percent but exactly where that cut-off should be is debatable, and many factors should come into play. So someone else may feel that going to lower percentages on your 3-betting hands is fine, and there is really no way to dispute that.

Best wishes,
Mason

This assumes all hands show down, correct?

Except it very much matters how the better players view you at the table

Well, shouldn't it be good for you if the better players in the game view you as a nit?

It should allow you to bluff them out of some pots, and they'll be more likely to get out of your way when you're trying to isolate a loose player preflop.

In order to take advantage of a nit perception, you have to be aware that you're perceived as a nit