Yes, many 20 players play this way. Some even raise QJo UTG and some 3B a UTG open with QJo. These aren't even close to the worst PF plays I see regularly.

I don't think the average 20 player considers the position of the opener as much as you think.

Hi KL03:

I agree that some players make stupid 3-bets, and I also agree that almost all players are too loose in the early seats.

Best wishes,
Mason

When did I ever say any thing close to this. I'm saying players that will limp or raise with JQo UTG will also happily cold call our UTG raise with it.

And there's lots of people that play like this

Just for once read what I wrote in Post #250 above.

Many players will limp and/or cold call this hand from any position.

I did and think you likely give players way to much credit u less the Belagio 20-40 is somehow the west game in the world

Pretty sure there are 20-40 games farther west than Vegas

Jon_locke typos are the west.

I don't know if in either place they consider the position of the raiser that much or not, but I will say the games at Bellagio are quite a bit tighter than the 20/40 games at CAZ.

JL has it right. When the big one comes, CA will sink into the ocean and Las Vegas will be beachfront property.

Mason

I'm a pretty big nit (see all my fold preflop posts) but I would leave my table if I thought I couldn't raise AJo profitably UTG.

I imagine two guys sitting in their Belagio hotel room: "what are we up to tonight?" "Let's hit up the rhino and bank and then afterwardswts fold JQo to UTG raises." " hell of a plan I can't wait to demonstrate my positional awareness to the table.

So sick. That's basically the entirety of my Vegas trip report.

The guys in the 20/40 canterbury lhe barely know what planet they are on, let alone what position they are in. And queen jack off is one of the better hands they play. This game often plays like a 2006 lhe.

20/40 at bellagio sounds awful in comparison.

This is probably true of every 20/40 game in the country, I guess with the exception of the late night Belaggio game where everyone plays pre flop better than they do at 100-200 (where there's usually at least 2 guys who will snap cold call JQ)

The Bellagio 20 in my somewhat limited experience is very beatable but plays very differently than 20 in other locations. It is not a loose wild supersoft game like at bike or commerce (though of course these games happen). It plays more tight aggressive and there are more knowledgable opponents aware of position as Mason said. More pros and semi pros. The bad players are the ones who are too loose aggressive and go to far with hands. They are not just calling money off or completely bonkers with some exceptions of course. It's actually pretty easy to know where you're at and play well and people make many mistakes. But it's not the kind of game you raise utg and get five or six callers in my experience anyway.

To be fair, and without commenting either way in anything else, and I've said for years the 20 and 40 run tighter than any I've played any where else. But I'm talking about the Vegas regs because obv what ever group of people in town that week change things

I've always attributed this to the 5 bet cap

I just raised AJo utg in a 9 handed 20-40 game at Bellagio. I got 4 callers and lost against AQ on A75Q5 runout.

Right?!?

It's been driving me crazy for the last 10-15 years, Mason's take on lower mid limit players' abilities. This isn't the old days of "my AQ dominates your KQ; let's take a HUHU flop!" Players in my games cold call an UTG open and EMP 3! With KTo, A6s, a 4 of purple unicorns and a cocktail napkin.

Does it always happen this way? No, of course not. But can we stop the narrative that Vegas mid limit games are chock full of exclusively tight passive old men and quasi-world class players? It's goddamn 20/40.

Please, please tell me AQ cold called pre flop and then just called down.

No, AQ was first cold caller. I bet flop, AQ raised, others folded and I called down.

Hi Jeffage:

You're correct. The $20-$40 games at The Bellagio are highly beatable and are as you describe.

Also, for those who are currently playing at The Bellagio, I find the games a little tougher than normal due to all the WSOP people who have showed up to play. But there are a lot of games right now and a few have been more like what is described by others in this thread.

Best wishes,
Mason

I'd attribute it to the low rake.

Mason, I agree with you that the Bellagio games are likely tighter with better preflop play than games that may run in MN, AZ, or CA.

I think most would agree that great players are going to beat these amazing games for around 1 bet/hour, maybee up to 60 hour with enough SH mixed in. (It's gonna be more in great lineups and less in bad lineups obviously) But I would think we can all agree that we are going to make more money on average in games where 6 people see the flop than in games where 8 people fold JQ to our UTG range (I would quit a 20 game if that was ever the case FWIW).

So do you think that
(1) winrates in the bellagio game should be lower and the game can't be beaten for 1 bb/hour
(2) live pros outside of vegas can prob win 1.5-2 bb/hour or
(3) games with 6 cold callers are not easier to beat than games where you can steal the big blind


Lets also remember that lots of other 20 games outside of vegas have kills as well which makes winrates even greater

So I'm playing 100-200 vs. a bunch of tough players that will fold everything to my UTG raise, except they will 3b 88+, AJ+, and KQs. And after a substantial and statistically significant sample size, I find raising AJo UTG is profitable against those lineups.

Then I move down to a 20-40 game, where the regs have the exact same 3b ranges vs. my UTG open, but all add a cold calling range of KJ, QJ, JT.

Now my expectation for opening AJo UTG just went down?