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Old 06-11-2012, 10:56 AM   #1
PokerStars Nick
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Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

PokerStars is currently reviewing our Fixed Limit offerings, and two of the changes we are evaluating are increasing the minimum buyin and introducing a timer to prevent you from leaving a table and immediately returning with a shorter stack. This would potentially be implemented at all Fixed Limit tables.

To help us with this review, we would appreciate your input on how you would like these changes implemented, or if you think these changes are necessary at all.

If you do want either of these features added to Fixed Limit games, how high would you like to see the minimum buyin, and how long would you like people to have to wait before coming back to a table with a shorter stack than they left?

If you don’t want to see these features added to the Fixed Limit games, what are the negative effects you think these changes will have on the games?

Thanks in advance for your help. We appreciate the assistance in improving the quality of the games at PokerStars.
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:19 AM   #2
daiquiri
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

I don't think ratholing and shortstacking have been an issue in LHE.. So these changes are like.. ok, whatever..
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:42 AM   #3
gnalf
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

fixing both ratholing and shortstacking is a good thing.

sadly it’s like fixing someone’s make-up while the biggest problem is his heartattack.
it leaves a beautiful corpse though.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:06 PM   #4
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

I'm a US resident, so I don't know if my opinion matters here or not.

The first time I saw a player at Stars pick up and sit down again immediately with a smaller stack, I was outraged. That's "ratholing," and it is forbidden in any competently run brick-and-mortar cardroom. It ought to be forbidden online as well.

I don't see anything wrong with a minimum buy-in on the order of five big bets (ten big blinds); that's fairly standard.

As long as you are looking at software improvements to put a stop to angleshooting, I recommend in the strongest possible terms that you take a look at Tony Pirone's thread in the HSLHE forum about instant sit-outs higher-stakes six-max games. Read through the whole thing. Think about the pros and cons of implementing (say) a thid-man-walking rule or JohnnyHumungous's suggestion of requiring an n-handed game to play for n-1 more hands once someone sits out or leaves.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:14 PM   #5
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by daiquiri View Post
I don't think ratholing and shortstacking have been an issue in LHE.. So these changes are like.. ok, whatever..
Agree with this and Alan's comments. Shortstack play isn't an advantage in LHE like it is in NL. Ratholing is meh, and fixing it is fine. Neither of these are real issues that have damaged games in any way I've seen.

Nick, are these issues that were on a list of "software improvements to make" that eventually came up to the top or is this your main thrust in fixing LHE game? If this is part of the plan to fix LHE, I'm with the other responders to this thread. The fundamental issues that are killing your LHE games aren't here and these fixes won't improve your diminishing player pool.
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Old 06-11-2012, 01:06 PM   #6
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

Canadian resident, fwiw.

I see no problem with the current min buy-in.

Ratholing fix OK, I suppose, though I've rarely seen this as an issue at the tables I play on PS. Either fix is kinda "whatev", imo.
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Old 06-11-2012, 01:17 PM   #7
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

I do not think these specific changes are necessary for LHE.

Haven't played a hand online in over a year
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Old 06-11-2012, 01:45 PM   #8
bellatrix
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

I find this so funny, I wrote an e-mail to Pokerstars about 3 years ago, about these guys shortstacking at 10/20+. The advantage is really tiny in LHE, I know that, but every little bit helps. Here is Pokerstars response:


Hello Tanya,

Thank you for your mail.

Please notice that this is not violating the rules.

The minimum buy-in on a fixed limit table is 10 times the small bet or 5
times the big bet, . So in this case the minimum buy-in on a 10/20 FL table
is 100 usd.

Please consider the following poker theory. The minimum buy-in in Limit
poker is 5 Big Bets (5 BBs). If a player buys-in to a table with a
short-stack of 5 BBs, the maximum they can win in a pot will be 5 BBs. The
generally accepted expert strategy states players should take 25 BBs to a
table at the very minimum, as this permits them to win the maximum amount
when a large pot develops. Short-stacked players most definitely do not get
value for their good hands.

Thus, in Limit games, PokerStars does not consider it necessary to enforce a
"No Hit & Run" rule. As the betting is fixed, the size of the pot is capped
and players, unless they are short-stacked themselves, will not lose their
entire buy-in in a single hand.

For No Limit and Pot Limit games however, where players can lose an entire
buy-in in a single hand, PokerStars definitely enforces rebuy rules to
prevent "Hit & Run" tactics.

This policy is meant to give players a fair chance of winning their money
back. This policy be found on our web site here:

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/limits/

This does not apply to limit poker and limit games.

Please let us know if we can be of any further assistance.

Best regards,

Karl R
Poker Specialist
PokerStars Support

----

Now they want to fix it. haha!

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE get rid of buttoning before you fix the 5BB issue.
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Old 06-11-2012, 01:48 PM   #9
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

How about a promo for players contributing the max of 12BB to a LHE pot and winning? Every player doing so is eligible for a $100 reload bonus with code LIMITALLIN

Problem solved, all full stackers, looser games, more rake for stars
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:00 PM   #10
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

I think I would prefer the minimum buy-in to be raised from 5BB to say 8BB. I also think this somewhat helps with problem 2 re:ratholing.

That said, I have yet to find a player that does buy-in for the minimum, ratholes, and plays well. So if any of these changes would reduce the number of players sitting down to try LHE with a couple of bets I'm definitely against it.

Also agree with others posters that their are bigger issues in today's games worth focusing on.
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:10 PM   #11
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

I'm wondering why are you thinking about theese changes?

I have not noticed that there would be a lot of players who has a habbit of ratholing. But if Pokerstars support keeps receiving complaints about it - go ahead.

About minimum buyin - only players who likes to buy in short at FLH are recreational players. The table would not break so fast if everybody would be forced to buy in for more than 5BB, so I kinda would like this change, but I hope that would not scare away some players.
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:43 PM   #12
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

Lately there seem to be a lot of players at micros buying in for the minimum so I'd like to see it raised a bit. Not a massive issue compared to the rake though... and that just gets ignored.
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Old 06-11-2012, 02:55 PM   #13
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

Worst is people filling up every f waitlist and sits out until they are booted off table. Auto post BB 2 or 3 orbits should be mandatory when sitting at a table.
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Old 06-11-2012, 03:09 PM   #14
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by daiquiri View Post
I don't think ratholing and shortstacking have been an issue in LHE.. So these changes are like.. ok, whatever..
This. I don't think either of those issues are really a problem.

Lowering the rake at 2/4 and 1/2 was a good and overdue change. LHE specific promotions for new players would be a great way to pick the games up.

I'd think it's in the best interest of Stars to revive LHE, since the site makes a ton of money off rake. It's also a less intimidating form of poker, which many new players might find inviting and enjoyable.
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Old 06-11-2012, 04:38 PM   #15
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

Both great ideas. Please please please implement. Shortstacking and ratholing are just goofy strategies, and its not poker. If I can't bluff you, because you'll just be all in, it's not poker. I really hope you do the right thing, stars.
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Old 06-11-2012, 04:41 PM   #16
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlsFold View Post
Worst is people filling up every f waitlist and sits out until they are booted off table. Auto post BB 2 or 3 orbits should be mandatory when sitting at a table.
This. Also:

The best change you could make would be to fix the waitlist system. One suggestion I made years ago was that if someone times out on a waitlist dialogue box, automatically remove them from all waitlists. This mostly occurs (and I'm guilty of it as well) if someone quits for the day, leaves their computer, and forgets to get off all their waitlists.

This would help keep games from breaking, something everyone wants.
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Old 06-11-2012, 05:53 PM   #17
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

I don't like it when a guy is sitting out for the maximum time with no intention of returning - that is just a waste of a seat. However, even this is not the issue. The issue is the crippling rake. Its good that it has been reduced a little at some stakes but please do more. The business about returning with a smaller stack isn't really the issue, as others have said.
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Old 06-11-2012, 06:29 PM   #18
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Nick View Post
PokerStars is currently reviewing our Fixed Limit offerings, and two of the changes we are evaluating are increasing the minimum buyin and introducing a timer to prevent you from leaving a table and immediately returning with a shorter stack. This would potentially be implemented at all Fixed Limit tables.

To help us with this review, we would appreciate your input on how you would like these changes implemented, or if you think these changes are necessary at all.

If you do want either of these features added to Fixed Limit games, how high would you like to see the minimum buyin, and how long would you like people to have to wait before coming back to a table with a shorter stack than they left?

If you don’t want to see these features added to the Fixed Limit games, what are the negative effects you think these changes will have on the games?

Thanks in advance for your help. We appreciate the assistance in improving the quality of the games at PokerStars.
wow, I seriously hope it didnt take you guys too long to come up with these new ideas.
Anyone who plays LHE even semi-regularly would know that whether you implement these changes or not wont change anything.

Include someone who knows anything about LHE in the brain-storming next time maybe?
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Old 06-11-2012, 06:39 PM   #19
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

like everyone else has said ratholing is hardly even an issue as it happens so extremly rarely in LHE.

rake on the other hand happens every hand and should be addressed.
the player pool could also use some promotions to try and re-liven things ups.

something that i would like to see though is higher stakes FLHE zoom...maybe up to $1/$2 or $2/$4
only seeing 10cent/20cent at release was kind of disappointing
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Old 06-11-2012, 06:50 PM   #20
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

If you want to make those changes, I don't think any limit player really cares one way or another...they have minimal impact. There are other bigger issues.

The first thing you should do is have the system boot players sitting out if they table is not full. Currently they can sit without getting booted (they would get kicked off if the table was full after a few orbits). Often these players are playing at other tables, but don't want to play extra shorthanded (or whatever reason they have). Many times they are sitting in the only seat Id sit in...so I don't sit and the table breaks as a result.
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Old 06-11-2012, 07:25 PM   #21
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

There are so many threads with lots of good ideas how to promote LHE and what to improve/change, but I'm almost certain we never mentioned ratholing and shortstacking.
When I saw this thread I expected SOMETHING, but then I just lol'd.

This post from gnalf sums up these changes really well:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnalf View Post
fixing both ratholing and shortstacking is a good thing.

sadly it’s like fixing someone’s make-up while the biggest problem is his heartattack.
it leaves a beautiful corpse though.

BUT... At least there is some activity from PokerStars, which is obv good.
All we need is a change that matters.
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:22 PM   #22
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreySteel View Post
When I saw this thread I expected SOMETHING, but then I just lol'd.

All we need is a change that matters.
You could state your proposition of a "change that matters" instead of lolling people giving inputs to improve games.
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:11 PM   #23
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

Hi Stars,

Policies against ratholing are fine, but don't mess with shortstacking. The best games are always guys that buy in for 8bb. Why are we going to prevent them from doing so or force them to move down in stakes?

The main problem for me at hu limit tables is the inability to turn off autopost blinds and stay at a table. This is very annoying and stars is as far as I know the only site that does this. I probably lose a few hundred a year on this if I am hanging around the house and miss the beep or accidentally have my sound off. It also leads to aggressive cheesy button stealing.

I would even accept a reduced timer as a compromise for this if you want to get rid of people just hanging around.

Please add one section higher of hu tables, either 15 30 or 20 40.

Keep up the good work, otherwise.
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Old 06-12-2012, 12:21 PM   #24
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlsFold View Post
You could state your proposition of a "change that matters" instead of lolling people giving inputs to improve games.
We already had many discussion in numerous threads about "changes that matters". I was an active member in everyone of them, so I'm not just trolling here.

There were zero LHE promos until now, even though they promised them like 5 months ago.
All they did was lowering rake at 2/4 (and 1/2), after they actually increased it. That was obvious good and much needed.
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Old 06-12-2012, 01:05 PM   #25
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Re: Input Requested – Possible Changes to Fixed Limit Games

Quote:
"and introducing a timer to prevent you from leaving a table and immediately returning with a shorter stack"
- this basicly means less play time with bad players, how will that help good players? and they will just leave and go to play at other tables, so i can't see how this rule will help.
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