One suggestion I would make independent of this hand is to talk to some players in this game and ask their opinion of you and your opponent in general. Most people have an idea of how others view their play based on how they view their own play. Even in this thread you have described your opponent in a somewhat conflicting way. (He is too tight to bluff raise river but he opens a very wide range of pots. He tries to make fancy plays but only with strong hands. You are close to 95 pct certain he is never bluffing a board that has many semi bluffs on turn)

What a great spot to 3 bet bluff river this is

Only when jdr is villain

I always have it.

LMAO...sounds good JRD. But here's the thing. . So on the flop when you check raised the guy and he called...did that tell you anything? When you led out on turn and he raised..did that tell you anything? And here is my problem...if the guy is tricky and balanced I can understand you still not knowing where you are in hand...but why 3bet? just call and c/c river. ANd after you 3bet the turn and he just calls...does that tell you anything? Now if the guy is that tricky that you STILL have no clue where u r in hand....why lead out on river..once again just c/c..but to lead river and then fold to raise??????????? so the guy is so tricky that after the flop and turn you still don't know where you are, but you can fold to a river raise? So you have no clue how he plays flop, no clue how he'd play turn, but you know the guys river play so well that you can fold an over-pair HU? Like I said ILLOGICAL.

I'm pretty suprised to hear people dislike the turn 3b. How strong do we need to be???

Oh look it's dead.money again, the 4/8 "expert".
Sounds to me like he has nearly his entire pfr range. C-bet/call, raise turn if strong is pretty standard in most situations.

I can't specifically say what it means for this opponent. But for most opponents, it's top pair+ or a semi-bluff. We're 3-betting to extract value from top pair and semi-bluffs.

Tells me that he has top pair+ or a semi-bluff. He probably should just 4-bet ultra strong hands right now, but sometimes people wait until the river for some reason.

Why would we c/c after 3-betting turn?

River raise is polarized to monsters and absolutely nothing. Given the action so far, a monster seems much more probable than a total bluff, since the opponent has no reason to believe a bluff would ever work here.
However, I would call. Because I don't fold overpairs in bloated pots.

Why would we c/c after 3-betting turn?


Why would we c/f????? after 3 betting turn?

River raise is polarized to monsters and absolutely nothing. Given the action so far, a monster seems much more probable than a total bluff, since the opponent has no reason to believe a bluff would ever work here.
However, I would call. Because I don't fold overpairs in bloated pots.[/QUOTE]

ANd now his range SUDDENLY becomes polarized? LMAO! and how in the world do you think opponent has no reason to believe a bluff would work? I swear you guys say some of the dumbest things...

and FYI, some of you should go back thru these post...you advocate sooo many lines where at the end ur donk / folding to a raise. Might be profitable to just ALWAYS get the last bet in on some of you....pros????? lmao

Tells me that he has top pair+ or a semi-bluff. He probably should just 4-bet ultra strong hands right now, but sometimes people wait until the river for some reason.

Not sure why they bet the river instead of 4 betting the turn...they just do. But they'd NEVER raise a busted flush draw here, or be over playing AQ, KQ, Q9s or better? It was a HORRIBLE fold.

I explained to you what his range was on every street.

I don't see a single person advocating to fold to the raise on the river.

why didnt villian 4 bet turn? After previous action why would he just call 3bet with better than top pair?(heads up, with no cap) The hands that villian would take that line with..IMO and granted I'm a lowly 4/8 player(who knows when and when not to fold LMAO)are heavily weighted to Top pair, draws, and pair plus flush draw. the river helped NONE of these, why fold...old hand? lmao...these names...poohbah, old hand, lmao.

I explained to you what his range was on every street.

You gave a WIDE range on both streets, which is understandable given the description of the guy being tricky....explain to me how on the river...SUDDENLY, his range is polorized...WASN'T IT POLORIZED AFTER TURN 3 BET! so why lead and fold?

I don't see a single person advocating to fold to the raise on the river.

i saw two, reread and JRD didn't just advocate it...HE DID IT! lmao!

[QUOTE=dead.money;52168416]River raise is polarized to monsters and absolutely nothing. Given the action so far, a monster seems much more probable than a total bluff, (what monster's does villian just call 3bet with on turn? And how many combos of those vs combos of draws, top pair, etc.)


since the opponent has no reason to believe a bluff would ever work here.
(ahh but a bluff WOULD have worked here, maybe villian knows more than you?)

The titles - pooh bah, old hand, etc. are automatically assigned based on how many posts you've made throughout the 2+2 forums. I believe you can customize it to whatever you want after you accrue a LOT of posts, but the ones you've mentioned are forum default.

No, it wasn't polarized after he called a turn 3-bet.
It was still exactly the same as when he called the turn 3-bet, because there are no hands that villian is going to raise/fold the turn with except pure and total air.

It's more polarized on the river because he raised YET AGAIN and it can no longer be a semi-bluff because the board has concluded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetofJacks

The titles - pooh bah, old hand, etc. are automatically assigned based on how many posts you've made throughout the 2+2 forums. I believe you can customize it to whatever you want after you accrue a LOT of posts, but the ones you've mentioned are forum default.

BUT it can be a complete bluff! Which is much more likely than a monster.

Would you learn how to quote things properly? It's really not hard.

Yes, in this instance, a bluff would have worked.
Given all previous action, however, it's apparent that Hero has a very strong value hand. For villain to think that hero would fold for one more bet at the end would be absolutely silly.

not sure how I did that lmao...but the (yea I figured....) was in response to quote above it? just FYI

Personally I think it's Q2ss.

LMAO...yes I do need some work on that! but then again is it something I should actually invest time in? learning how to quote things that is.

What value hands fit here? and obviously the whole argument turns on if vil would 4bet these hands on turn or not. Absolutely silly to YOU, because you could never draw the right conclusions from the action, but once again..a bluff WOULD have worked here and thus an observant player might have found it in his game to do so....but not you old hand lmao.

A bluff will only work if the player is willing to fold KK.
Since jdr is the only person in this thread willing to fold KK, then yeah, it's unreasonable to expect a bluff to work.

Interesting that you're simultaneously saying we should never fold KK but that the villain should also expect us to fold KK.

A bluff will only work if the player is willing to fold KK. a duuuuuh! lmao.

Since jdr is the only person in this thread willing to fold KK
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting that you're simultaneously saying we should never fold KK but that the villain should also expect us to fold KK.
Whats interesting is you putting words in my mouth! We should NEVER fold kings in this spot. How the hell does vil know JRD has kings...jrd just called raised preflop. And after reading sooooo many post in here where line goes bet/fold on end...Id seriously consider raising alot of you on end, like I said might be profitable to just ALWAYS get last bet in on some of you!

How often do we get to showdown only to see something totally out of left field? For me it happens many times a session. I am constantly surprised by the hands players (even players I think play well) turn over. We just need to be surprised once in a long while to call here.

This. I would call and expect to lose. I'm not good enough to save a bet here even if it is likely correct.