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Old 04-11-2009, 08:09 PM   #1
jesse8888
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I am weak tight personified

Live 20. Steaming preflop lag (raises and 3 betting a lot and generally botching and bitching a lot) opens. I 3 bang the kq bluffly idiot calls 3 cold (non-rare. He 3 bet the bb with K3 sooooooted). Opener caps it and I am sad. He has JJ+ and AKs at widest.....maybe AKo and AQs but who cares. We both call.

13 small, 3 hands

T 8 7

Opener bets, I call, idiot calls.

8 large, 3 ways

6

Opener checks...I check, idiot bets, we both call.

Black deuce

We both check, idiot bets, opener calls, I muck.

So I'm a loose passive fish now right?
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Old 04-11-2009, 09:13 PM   #2
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Re: I am weak tight personified

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Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
So I'm a loose passive fish now right?
Not if this is true:

Quote:
He has JJ+ and AKs at widest.....maybe AKo and AQs
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Old 04-11-2009, 09:19 PM   #3
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Re: I am weak tight personified

If the guy behind you is calling 2 cold 100% on the flop, you have a pretty clear raise for value on the flop. I chose hands for your passenger that included K3s (about 35%) and took off a capping range, since he didn't. It turns out that almost all of the 3rd guy's equity goes to the PF capper. You can jam the two of them, but cleaning up outs is pointless. Turns out that you are correct, adding AQs & AKo combos make no effective difference.

I am confused that opens = "Steaming preflop lag (raises and 3 betting a lot and generally botching and bitching a lot) opens." While caps = "He has JJ+ and AKs at widest.....maybe AKo and AQs"

Board: Th 8h 7d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.587% 40.34% 00.25% 2086972 12717.00 { KhQh }
Hand 1: 38.509% 38.15% 00.36% 1973604 18596.00 { JJ+, AKs }
Hand 2: 20.903% 20.45% 00.45% 1058004 23394.00 { 99-55, AJs-A2s, K3s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, AQo-A4o, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }


---

Board: Th 8h 7d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.866% 40.60% 00.27% 3277526 21549.33 { KhQh }
Hand 1: 33.578% 33.12% 00.46% 2673670 37029.33 { JJ+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 2: 25.555% 25.01% 00.55% 2018697 44348.33 { 99-55, AJs-A2s, K3s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, AQo-A4o, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }

---

Board: Th 8h 7d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.103% 43.78% 00.32% 9102 67.00 { KhQh }
Hand 1: 55.897% 55.57% 00.32% 11554 67.00 { JJ+, AKs }

---

Board: Th 8h 7d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.620% 44.25% 00.37% 14457 120.50 { KhQh }
Hand 1: 55.380% 55.01% 00.37% 17972 120.50 { JJ+, AQs+, AKo }
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Old 04-11-2009, 10:05 PM   #4
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Re: I am weak tight personified

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I am confused...
TBH, so was I.

But, since it was jessee's thread, I thought I'd just go ahead and post. If my comments were terrible/wrong, I'd claim "confusion", too.

Does this make me guilty of free-rolling in my reply here on mid-stakes?
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Old 04-11-2009, 11:49 PM   #5
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Re: I am weak tight personified

My comment was based on the fact that I had logged 3.5 hours with this guy so far when the hand came up, and while I'd seen him open raise a lot and 3-bet maybe a half dozen times, I had not yet seen him cap. In general he is fairly passive, but today he was steaming and his steam seemed to come out in terms of raising and 3-betting lighter than usual for him.

I mean, to be honest here, let's give him a wide capping range of 66+, AQ+, KQ+. I'm still absolutely devastated on this board, right?
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Old 04-11-2009, 11:50 PM   #6
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Re: I am weak tight personified

I wasn't really sure what the guy behind me would do, but I really, really didn't want him to fold unless I thought I could somehow win the hand without showing down, which seemed kind of absurd.
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Old 04-12-2009, 01:07 AM   #7
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Re: I am weak tight personified

I don't think you can win the hand without showing down so I don't really see a point in raising since he's likely showing down AK unimproved.
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Old 04-12-2009, 03:24 AM   #8
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Re: I am weak tight personified

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I don't think you can win the hand without showing down so I don't really see a point in raising since he's likely showing down AK unimproved.
Really?
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Old 04-12-2009, 03:38 AM   #9
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Re: I am weak tight personified

Yeah that's the thing, I don't think he's showing down AK ui here much. If this pot were heads up I'd just go bat**** and take some sort of "get him to fold" line, probably just by betting or raising at every opportunity til one of us had to muck our hand (or I got check/raised or 3-bet or something).

But with the drooler behind me, I was at a loss for how to proceed. I considered raising some non-heart turns, but not only did I get a crappy one, he didn't bet into me. The turn card is so scary to the preflop raiser that I can't completely rule out the possibility that he's gone into show down mode with black jacks or something. His hand certainly looks like AK when he checks the turn, though....

So Mitch, if you were gonna try to win this pot without showing your cards, would you just start raising on the flop, or would you wait til the turn to drop the hammer? And do you think there is merit in that, or is playing the hand like a pansy warranted here?
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Old 04-12-2009, 04:38 AM   #10
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Re: I am weak tight personified

I would raise the flop and barrel a street in this spot, giving up on the the river if both calll turn and barreling the river if only one comes.
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Old 04-12-2009, 10:44 AM   #11
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Re: I am weak tight personified

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
My comment was based on the fact that I had logged 3.5 hours with this guy so far when the hand came up.
Live reads are the nuts. If that's your guy, that's your guy. I meant to mention that if you trusted your read, I'm OK. I just wanted to be extra sure by asking.

Quote:
I mean, to be honest here, let's give him a wide capping range of 66+, AQ+, KQ+. I'm still absolutely devastated on this board, right?
You aren't absolutely devastated if he has JJ+, AKs. You have an equity edge on the flop 3 ways. You have a plenty big pot to draw HU.

Quote:
Yeah that's the thing, I don't think he's showing down AK ui here much. If this pot were heads up I'd just go bat**** and take some sort of "get him to fold" line, probably just by betting or raising at every opportunity til one of us had to muck our hand (or I got check/raised or 3-bet or something).

But with the drooler behind me, I was at a loss for how to proceed. I considered raising some non-heart turns
I think the flop is where you have a win/win, if your plan was to go wild if HU. You raise the flop. If the guy behind you calls, you just enjoy your equity edge. If you get HU, you seem to like that proposition. You can't lose if you like being HU. You don't want to wait for the turn (you can jam profitably on the flop), unless you think your bluffing equity is much better there. The drooler makes things better, not worse. That's as it should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MitchL View Post
I would raise the flop and barrel a street in this spot, giving up on the the river if both calll turn and barreling the river if only one comes.
Or, you could just do what MirchL says.
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:11 PM   #12
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Re: I am weak tight personified

I probably raise the flop. If you think he's so steaming he'll call down with A-high unimproved, then just check back turn.
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:54 PM   #13
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Re: I am weak tight personified

Flop is fine if his range really is JJ+ etc even though he is steeming. His turn check reeks of "I have unimprtoved hi cards and i am going to check/call and then check/fold." so I bet the turn cause other dude could have anything.
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:14 PM   #14
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Re: I am weak tight personified

i agree with mitch...

but as played you ought to c/r the turn... everyone keeps telling me that raises on big streets always equals the nuts, so go ahead and try to rep a str8... now, obviously, you dont have much credibility, but your draw is strong, the steaming lag may fold his AK/AQ when it comes back to him, and the other guy can still be weak as well
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Old 04-13-2009, 03:50 PM   #15
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Re: I am weak tight personified

I play it the same, but I can see merit in Tryp's line.
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Old 04-13-2009, 06:45 PM   #16
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Re: I am weak tight personified

Given your belief that opener won't fold, I would raise flop to get a free turn card. Maybe the drooler folds too in which case you get to choose between a free card and a semi-bluff.
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