20/40, 7 handed

UTG folds, Loose-ish player opens utg+1, generic tag calls, laggy crusher calls and loose-ish gambling type calls button. A solid, tricky player is in the BB but won't raise here unless he has the goods. I have J8s in the sb and elect to call.

Flop comes 8s7d3d. I check and it folds to laggy crusher who bets. Button folds and I raise. Crusher 3-bets and I call.

Turn is the 9c. I check/call even though that card seems bad it gives me that draw.

River is an off suit 4 and I check/call.

I think I should fold river but maybe that's not even the biggest mistake in the hand? Against a more straightforward player I wouldn't feel so bad but this dude is good and capable of taking shots at me as I know he perceives me as a weaker player.

Preflop seems questionable given the people in the pot. If it was a bunch of droolers that's one thing, but half the people are fine enough and have j8s dominated. I'm not super confident it's a slam dunk fold but it's what I'd do given the description of the hand.

Post flop you played perfectly. Doing anything else on the flop/turn/river seems bad.

What mistake do you think you made?

Plenty of reason to x/r the flop for value and protection. The strongest preflop range didn't cbet, so there should be no overpairs. Maybe donking this flop texture makes sense, I'm not sure about that.

Though if you weren't behind on the flop, the 9x turn is a terrible card for you. When he keeps firing turn/river in position on such a dynamic turn card, I don't see many semi-bluff combos that haven't gotten there. We can hope he has A7s/T8s, maybe broadway diamonds. I think it's a standard 'call and expect to lose' spot.

I would play same way calling river.

Vs a LAGTAG on river, if read is that villain won't 3 bet flop without 8x+, it might be a fold but seems fine to pay off for info in a bloated pot.

Should also help later on based on LAGTAG sitting directly to your left.

I would have bet flop

why would anyone fold when checked to? If you mean to say that they checked, then that would be cause enough to play the flop for one bet as you did. if they really folded in turn when checked to, then a check raise seems more appropriate.

Preflop is debatable but I think J9s is a solid call there.

Turn played itself.

On the river you can beat a bluff. If he thinks you're calling down with AJ then you probably beat some of his value hands. I'd check call.

Don’t think you can do anything else on any street really. I’d cap and lead if flop were two tone.

PF is fine. Did you have Jd8d? That is unclear.

Most players have very defined 3b ranges here. Standard would be FD, Straight Draw, or 8+. You beat T8s, QTs, QJs, 6 suited Kings, 7 suited aces. But, remove some K-rag-spades, discount AJs+, discount other spade draws he doesn't play this way. I'd peg it at fewer than 5 combos of hands he has that you beat. The ratio is not good enough to call here unless he has a lot of spazzy unconventional plays.

No, it was hearts. I would've been much happier with my hand had I had a flush draw. Anyway, spoiled below.

Only debatable spot is pf, and I don't mind the call.

Any chance you'd be willing to elaborate a bit? I think most (including myself) would've checked this primarily because we don't have much of a lead out range. I assume you're 3 betting pre with the upper percentile of your range, yet I think it's fine to have flats as well.

Since ranges are still reasonably wide, I suppose there's less reason for disguise. But are there enough draws that benefit from betting into the field here? And if in addition to pairs, you also bet two pair and sets, it seems you really weaken your checking range. And if you're not betting these stronger hands, I'd think it overly weakens your lead out range?

I'm not saying betting is wrong. In fact, it seems ideal here. I just don't know how to balance betting with checking in a spot like this because my range is so overall weak to begin with after flatting pre from the sb.

It’s a six way pot right? Not that worried about balance. Plus I disagree that our cold call range is weak on 873fd we have all sets, top two, and tons of high equity draws. Our hand is marginal but has value and we have backdoors that are useful here too.

I agree with dd that betting the flop is also a very acceptable choice. i made a mistake in my last post omitting that

Thanks DD. I guess balance and opacity ARE the same thing and agree much less important 6-ways v. wider ranges. Dumb. Sorry.

why is it everytime dd makes a post, every following reply agrees with him? why don't you stop jockin his nuts and think for yourselves. that said, i also agree with dd.

Preflop should have been a fold given your position.

This is actually a textbook example for why you shouldnt play these hands out of position, certainly not in the small blind.

When I see this type of play I automatically think fish.

How is PF close? You have a suited, semi connected hand in a 5+ way pot. It seems like a painfully standard call, but maybe I’m missing something.

Thanks for this.

Goes to show how fish TAG I still am for not incorporating flop donk bet in a bloated multi way pot.

BK, thank you as well.

this is a losing hand over time IMHO...you lose to bigger straights and flushes and you are out of position. You're also on an expensive draw most of the time.

I only play this hand against a really weak field.

I agree that playing tighter from SB should be advocated but doing it at Canterbury 20/40 standard mix of bad TAG, loose passive fisheS (counted 2 from OP post), LAG crusher (debatable since cold called), makes me lean towards J8 suited as being playable hand from SB by calling 1.5 bets.

Not sure since I'm a NIT Tag that rarely cold calls preflop especially in SB so.might be a Pot Call the Kettle black post by me lol