Some have said this hand is interesting, so I guess I'll post it. Maybe it's more interesting from CDC's point of view, or maybe it's pointless since unless you know the two of us and our familiarity with each other's game, the dynamics get lost. But nevertheless, here it is so do with it what you will.

Live 40/80, 9-handed. Folded to CDC who raises in the CO. His range here is literally 42o+ (no exaggeration). I 3-bet A7s OTB, folded back to him and he calls.

Flop 974r. He checkraises, I 3-bet, he calls.
Turn 8. Check-check.
River K. Check-check.

standard

Everything makes sense to me except the turn check. Would you please elaborate on your thinking?

if he's check raising with air then i'd be inclined to let him barrel the turn and then make him pay. yeah the turn is a bad card but his range must still be really wide.

He's not dumb enough to bluff a ton of rivers there so just bet the turn. Don't ask what to do if he raises because you'd know way more than us.

wp otherwise though.

1.) It really doesn't matter what you do because CDC will respond perfectly because he reads souls and unfortunately based on what I have seen your sould knows what hand you have.

2.) As played I like the turn and the river a lot because he is never ever folding a better hand and has the skills to own you with them or possible with a complete bluff and his range also includes a lot of things that are just going to fold. However, I think I would have just called his check/raise and let him have the intiative on the turn. Either way its only 1/2 a bet difference.

This wasn't a well thought out post.

OMG my ****ing eyes are bleeding !!

Excellent post, Trypt. You make some really good points, especially regarding the flop, and I like your estimate of CDC's range when he checks the river. Well done all around, and I think a lot of people here can learn from your high level of play when you post this thoroughly. Bravo, sir.

sorry, ill try to behave better

PJ - owning CDC is more fun when you pop the turn. Please send my regards.

PS:CDC is buying the button 9x out of ten while your sitting on it, his range is therefore the "dealer".

joker what is your pf 3 bet range in this spot?

do you get into pissing contests with ATC?

Good question, and no, I will definitely not have ATC. I'm too nitty to get into pissing contests against anyone, let alone CDC, against whom I am often terrified. So my range is going to be, say, A2+, K8s/K9o+, QT+, pairs, etc., stuff like that. I'm not really gonna show up with like 65s or 75o because I want to have a hand in position vs. him that has showdown value or at least flops well (like maybe T9s).

Joker--

As your opponent gets better and better, and gets capable of thinking on higher and higher levels, your play should get closer to what's game-theoretically optimal. Given the wideness of CDC's range, A7 is near enough the top of your range and beating so much of his that (I think) you simply have to bet the turn. Yes, the 8's a bad card, but you've grown the pot enough that your betting range needs to be big enough to include A7. If he raises, that sucks, but again, A7 should be near enough the top of your range that you need to call down (except maybe on the most hideous rivers).

Given that you checked the turn, the river's very interesting; even if CDC is a smart and liberal checkraiser, I don't think he can checkraise much here, given that so much of your range is strong enough post-King (and given that you three-bet the flop) to easily bet-call. All that said, I think A7 is just a hair too weak to value-bet, so I like the check. And if you'd bet the turn, I think I like checking too.

All my best,

--Nate

Well said, Nate. As usual.

I prefer calling the flop so I don't have initiative on bad cards like this, and can still raise good cards if you estimate there is enough value vs his made hand calling down range.

lol at the '+' after '42o'.......

I'd bet the turn and then check behind on the river if called because I have a horror of giving free cards. However, this trait of mine has often enough led to grief so that checking it down v. a tricky, aggro player seems fine also.

Will CDC really c/r again with air after being 3-bet on the flop?

Dude's a ****ing animal.

I imagine c/ring a worse hand would be suicide vs PJ, so if I bet I'd fold to a raise, but I don't mind checking behind (unless PJ only 3 bets the flop with made hands and draws on this board) since I don't think we can get 2 streets of value, and we'll usually get 1 bet in on the river anyway, plus it prevents us getting c/red off whatever outs we have, and guarantees a showdown just in case.

people have no idea, I've played against him before.

mother****er is ****in crazy

so yes

I've never really played with either of you, so I may be way off.

My thought process, if I'm in CDCs shoes, though, is that, after you threebet the flop, your hand probably isn't that strong. I mean, if you had a nine or an overpair, you'd probably just call the checkraise and pop the turn.

If I'm CDC, I cap any pair on the flop. But he didn't. So, I'm guessing he had a draw. 65, JT, J8, T8, 86, maybe 85, etc, are all possible.

The turn is an 8.

I'm still thinking that you don't have anything. So, if the 8 paired me, I'm going to fire into you, to get you to laydown overcards. I certainly don't want to give a free card to naked overs.

But CDC didn't fire out when the 8 came. And since I put him on a draw before, I'm now thinking he made a straight on the turn. If he has a straight, the last thing he wants is for you to be folding on the turn.

You check behind on the turn, so he's basically positive at this point that you have naked overs.

The river is a King.

Either you have nothing (i.e. AQ, QJ, AT, whatever), and probably won't call with a bare unimproved ace on that board. His only hope is that the king hit you, so you'll bet, and he can checkraise.



On the other hand, you put him on a draw on the flop, think he hit the 8 on the turn, so you checked it down, knowing you were beat.

Given all of this, I say, well played by both.

Josh

p.s. I hope I'm right.

Your range is too narrow.

More bets.

He's crasian for sure.

I play the hand the same way, the 8 is just such a crappy card.

Josh--

Look, your open-mindedness and creativity are commendable here, but making questionable assumptions and assuming they're 100% true and that the player involved will stick to the assumed plan 100% is an absurd way to play limit hold'em, and nowhere near a good enough reason to pass up the (mandatory, in my mind) play of betting the turn.

--Nate

I'd think that A7 would be at the bottom of PJ's flop 3bet range. I also think that calling down from the flop c/r is waaaay better esp after reading every second post about how CDC is an animal and will put you to a ton of tough decisions

this doesn't make any sense to me from a poker theory standpoint. I think you are talking about protecting our hand, but there isn't really anything to protect from.

if CDC has a pair he isn't folding, and all of his flopped draws have at least a pair now. even if he was checkraising random overcards (unlikely from most players) most of those picked up a straight draw, ie not folding.

so we can't make him make any FTOP incorrect folds, therefore deciding wether to bet or not depends entirely on our hand's equity vs his range. the flop c/r range from most players is beating us on an 8 turn, so checking behind the turn is best

---------------
not sure whether PJ was joking about preflop, but here is our equity vs CDC's flop c/r assuming he plays every hand preflop and will c/r all draws

Board: 9h 7d 4s

Hand 0: 58.431% { As7s }
Hand 1: 41.569% { 44, A9s, A7s, A4s, K9s, K7s, K4s, Q9s, Q7s, Q4s, J9s-J7s, J4s, T6s+, T4s, 92s+, 84s+, 72s+, 64s+, 54s, 42s+, A9o, A7o, A4o, K9o, K7o, K4o, Q9o, Q7o, Q4o, J9o-J7o, J4o, T6o+, T4o, 92o+, 84o+, 72o+, 64o+, 54o, 42o+ }

---------------
pretty awful turn card

Board: 9h 7d 4s 8c

Hand 0: 41.004% { As7s }
Hand 1: 58.996% { 44, A9s, A7s, A4s, K9s, K7s, K4s, Q9s, Q7s, Q4s, J9s-J7s, J4s, T6s+, T4s, 92s+, 84s+, 72s+, 64s+, 54s, 42s+, A9o, A7o, A4o, K9o, K7o, K4o, Q9o, Q7o, Q4o, J9o-J7o, J4o, T6o+, T4o, 92o+, 84o+, 72o+, 64o+, 54o, 42o+ }

-------
pretty amazing turn card

Board: 9h 7d 4s 2c

Hand 0: 58.737% { As7s }
Hand 1: 41.263% { 44, A9s, A7s, A4s, K9s, K7s, K4s, Q9s, Q7s, Q4s, J9s-J7s, J4s, T6s+, T4s, 92s+, 84s+, 72s+, 64s+, 54s, 42s+, A9o, A7o, A4o, K9o, K7o, K4o, Q9o, Q7o, Q4o, J9o-J7o, J4o, T6o+, T4o, 92o+, 84o+, 72o+, 64o+, 54o, 42o+ }


so yah. good turn check as played, but just call down from the flop