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Old 07-19-2017, 12:58 AM   #1
Lockes
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Hand critique 80/160

I was not the hero in this hand but I was in the game. I had quite the difference in opinion on a couple of streets, curious what others would do.

Villain 1 is an younger asian 80/160 reg, saw him playing 80 for most of the series. Villain 2 is an older white guy and the "spot". He's playing almost every hand.

V1 opens UTG+1, V2 three bets in mid position. Folds to hero in the CO with 88 who takes 3 to the face. Everyone else folds and V1 4bets (not a cap at Bellagio). V2 and hero both call.

Flop is Jh3s4h

V1 bets, V2 calls, Hero calls

Turn is 4c

V1 bets, V2 folds, Hero calls

River is Qd

V1 bets, Hero folds

Thoughts? Did he butcher it?
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:59 AM   #2
dadjoey
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

Any reads on V1's preflop or postflop play? Click call and expect to lose most of the time. Folding this river with this line and board probably means calling 3 with 88s isn't the best play.
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:13 AM   #3
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

First reaction is to fold pre. V1 should be opening few if any worse pocket pairs. If V2 is a loose passive fish, his raise here is incredibly strong.
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Old 07-19-2017, 02:26 AM   #4
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

fold pre but cap if u enter pot since it's probably only marginally worse than calling. As played, I could probably find a fold on river vs. many villains but vs complete unknown I guess I call.
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:25 AM   #5
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

Strange river to fold if opener could take this line with ak, at, a3, a5, type hands, or if he 4b! Any suited connectors that could also triple barrel

certainly ok to fold pre if 88 isn't going to take a more agressive line and raise any street
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:04 AM   #6
Lockes
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadjoey View Post
Any reads on V1's preflop or postflop play? Click call and expect to lose most of the time. Folding this river with this line and board probably means calling 3 with 88s isn't the best play.
Aggressive but not a maniac, certainly a solid winner.
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Old 07-19-2017, 11:24 AM   #7
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

Would 4 bet PF or fold.

As played, I would call river or fold flop if your read on 4 bet range PF, FTR cbet by V1 in this exact situation is narrow and if your willing to fold river on a relatively dry run out.

What would you have called river with?
Any non-heart and non-Q, K, A?
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:00 PM   #8
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

Agree with everyone else. Fold pre-, otherwise 4-bet pre-. As played call river.

In general one of the worst lines in limit in a big pot is call-call-fold closing the action with a made hand. It is sometimes correct, but usually not.
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:09 PM   #9
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

Remember 4 bet isn't a cap at bellagio

When you say v2 is playing almost every hand what does that mean? Limping? Cold calling? Raising atc every hand?

Folding river is bad, because you've turned your hand face up preflop so he should be barreling any ace high hoping you fold. Unless he's a Vegas reg in which case you can probably fold the turn
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Old 07-19-2017, 01:17 PM   #10
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

Meh not capping pf is fine if you don't cap AA/KK I guess.
With so few players in the hand , not capping define his hand too easy ( if he would cap AA).

He got to call river.
He beat AK, ATs,77,and other unconventional hands, bloated pot .
Call

Yes he will lose the pot more than 50%, but that is what a bluff catcher does.
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:42 PM   #11
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

As played gotta call the river, pre is close but a fold IME
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:18 PM   #12
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

I agree that you should 4bet or fold (and probably fold) preflop and should call river.

Are we calling an A on the river?
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:22 PM   #13
Lockes
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

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Originally Posted by ZOMG_RIGGED! View Post
Remember 4 bet isn't a cap at bellagio

When you say v2 is playing almost every hand what does that mean? Limping? Cold calling? Raising atc every hand?

Folding river is bad, because you've turned your hand face up preflop so he should be barreling any ace high hoping you fold. Unless he's a Vegas reg in which case you can probably fold the turn
Mixture of both, mostly limping but then back raising quite frequently with any two cards.
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Old 07-19-2017, 05:05 PM   #14
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

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Originally Posted by ZOMG_RIGGED! View Post
Folding river is bad, because you've turned your hand face up preflop so he should be barreling any ace high hoping you fold. Unless he's a Vegas reg in which case you can probably fold the turn
When you says Hero's hand is facing up on river, if you were V1, what range would you assign to Hero on river?
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:50 PM   #15
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

-Definitely want a better description of whale. If you have enough hand history to know he's playing any two cards, you should have an idea of how often he is raising or 3b'ing. That's really important, and needs to be part of your reads and shared.

-Strongly disagree that you should 4b or fold. If villain is playing 100/50, you will want to be playing some speculative hands IP and don't mind if blinds tag along.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:27 PM   #16
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

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Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
-Definitely want a better description of whale. If you have enough hand history to know he's playing any two cards, you should have an idea of how often he is raising or 3b'ing. That's really important, and needs to be part of your reads and shared.

-Strongly disagree that you should 4b or fold. If villain is playing 100/50, you will want to be playing some speculative hands IP and don't mind if blinds tag along.
About 8-10 years ago, CDC (Chris Daddy Cool) had great explanation of why having a 3 cold range in similar situation with bad blinds on the button is profitable



AvoidThe9to5 had a great mathematical explanation using hand ranges to explain having a 3 cold call range,is more profitable than 4 betting in terms of hot and cold equity (EV).

With that said, with how I play, I would only 4 bet or fold in Hero's situation as the cutoff facing LAGTAG UTG open, Bad LAG 3 bet. Please note I rarely have time to play poker anymore and only played up to 20/40 half kill when I used to play live excluding shots at Commerce and Bellagio shot tsking at 60/120 2-3 times like 10 years ago.
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Old 07-19-2017, 08:56 PM   #17
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Hand critique 80/160

Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
Agree with everyone else. Fold pre-, otherwise 4-bet pre-. As played call river.

In general one of the worst lines in limit in a big pot is call-call-fold closing the action with a made hand. It is sometimes correct, but usually not.

+1

Generally it's TERRIBLE not to call river with 8-8 in that spot given the price the pot is laying, but sometimes can find a fold in spots where you have more info on villain than was included in this OP. Here, terrible river fold.

And OCCASIONALLY I will cold call pre with 8-8 in that spot, but typically that's only if I'm playing with highly observant regs.

Last edited by COCOCHANEL; 07-19-2017 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:12 PM   #18
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

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Originally Posted by PocketKings View Post
When you says Hero's hand is facing up on river, if you were V1, what range would you assign to Hero on river?
A big meaty part of it is mid pairs and chopping aces that reallydo not enjoy having to call a 4b and barrel
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Old 07-20-2017, 01:34 PM   #19
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

Ah, so you would raise the river?
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Old 07-20-2017, 02:59 PM   #20
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

River raise is actually kind of hot here
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Old 07-20-2017, 04:41 PM   #21
dead..money
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

River raise seems horrible
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Old 07-20-2017, 09:38 PM   #22
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

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Originally Posted by dead..money View Post
River raise seems horrible
Why? I think it's pretty good. You should have a bluffing range and this hand (top of your folding range) seems like a good candidate with which to bluff raise.
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Old 07-20-2017, 10:24 PM   #23
dead..money
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

You are more likely to get called by worse than fold out better.

I know people always say stuff like above (have to have bluffing range etc... but thats a concept thats being horribly missaplied here). No we shouldnt have a bluffing range on the river vs preflop 4 better in a spot where we habe a very narrow range and cant credibly represent anything. For starters, nobody even raises AQ on this river given action so god knows what we are trying to represent when we raise river

Last edited by dead..money; 07-20-2017 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 07-22-2017, 12:00 AM   #24
kirbymontor
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

Quote:
Originally Posted by dead..money View Post
You are more likely to get called by worse than fold out better.

I know people always say stuff like above (have to have bluffing range etc... but thats a concept thats being horribly missaplied here). No we shouldnt have a bluffing range on the river vs preflop 4 better in a spot where we habe a very narrow range and cant credibly represent anything. For starters, nobody even raises AQ on this river given action so god knows what we are trying to represent when we raise river
If you don't raise then the hand becomes a bluff catcher. By OP discription of V1, he's a regular at the game, which I assume to mean he's not burning off money for the hell of it. I also don't think raising is optimal either.
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Old 07-22-2017, 09:06 AM   #25
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Re: Hand critique 80/160

Why are we folding the river? Aren't you getting odds to call?

Also, pre is solidly in the CALL area imo as long as you are sure to balance your call range here with some strong hands such as AA.
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