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Old 07-04-2018, 01:27 PM   #1
LifeRebooted
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Going clubbing

Cutoff is a TAG on the tighter side of TAG, but will occasionally open with an unexpected hand. Button is loose-passive; lots of cold-calling pre and very little raising post.

Hero is in the BB with AJ.

HJ limps, CO 2!, BU calls, Hero 3!, all call.

Flop 875 ~12 SB.

Hero checks, HJ checks, CO bets, BU calls, Hero calls, HJ folds.

Turn: (875) J ~7.5 BB.

Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls.

I considered donking, and also consider both calling on raising turn.
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Old 07-04-2018, 02:03 PM   #2
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Re: Going clubbing

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Originally Posted by LifeRebooted View Post
Cutoff is a TAG on the tighter side of TAG, but will occasionally open with an unexpected hand. Button is loose-passive; lots of cold-calling pre and very little raising post.

Hero is in the BB with AJ.

HJ limps, CO 2!, BU calls, Hero 3!, all call.

Flop 875 ~12 SB.

Hero checks, HJ checks, CO bets, BU calls, Hero calls, HJ folds.

Turn: (875) J ~7.5 BB.

Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls.

I considered donking, and also consider both calling on raising turn.
I would donk/fold the turn. The CO has something decent to be betting this flop mw. We are ahead of hands like 99's TT's A8, A7, etc. Hands that may not cap pre, would bet this flop, might check this turn.

I wouldn't expect this particular villian to get creative and raise the turn with a draw or turn a made hand into a bluff. If we donk here it looks like we have exactly a J. I don't think players like this are hand reading at a high level and willing to make a play. I bring this up because this might be a good spot for it.

Last edited by mongidig; 07-04-2018 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 07-04-2018, 04:43 PM   #3
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Re: Going clubbing

donk fold? hell no. def lead tho. would be pretty bad for it to get checked around and you should have a nice advantage here.
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Old 07-04-2018, 05:32 PM   #4
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Re: Going clubbing

[QUOTE=Victor;54013210]donk fold? hell no. def lead tho. would be pretty bad for it to get checked around and you should have a nice advantage here.[/

I'd be donk/calling against a lot of players and donk/folding against others. It depends on who did the betting and who did the raising and whether I thought I was drawing dead. A worse hand may raise here for value/protection.

I shouldn't have said just donk/fold.
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Old 07-04-2018, 08:03 PM   #5
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Re: Going clubbing

Off the top of my head and without running equities I'd xc. There are so many equity changing river cards for all involved that this seems a good spot to have an under repped hand.
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Old 07-05-2018, 03:51 AM   #6
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Re: Going clubbing

Why are you three-betting someone who is very tight preflop? Did you think limper might fold?
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:05 AM   #7
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Re: Going clubbing

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Why are you three-betting someone who is very tight preflop? Did you think limper might fold?
AJs is only a small dog against even a top 10% range, and I suspect the opener is opening even wider than that. The presence of 1-2 other players with capped ranges seems to make this a straightforward value raise, no?
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:36 AM   #8
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Re: Going clubbing

You have the worst position so you need to consider that as well. I don't hate it but I would usually just call here preflop if the raiser is very tight and likely not isolating light. Was mostly busy wanting to know your reasoning.
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:44 PM   #9
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Re: Going clubbing

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You have the worst position so you need to consider that as well. I don't hate it but I would usually just call here preflop if the raiser is very tight and likely not isolating light. Was mostly busy wanting to know your reasoning.
Chillrob do you have a 3 bet range here? If so, what is it?
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Old 07-05-2018, 01:10 PM   #10
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Re: Going clubbing

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Chillrob do you have a 3 bet range here? If so, what is it?
My exact range would depend on the other players, but I would have to think my hand was ahead of the raiser's range. The fact that a loose player is involved is good for us, but IMO that's balanced by having the worst absolute and relative position. I'd rather build big pots when in position and smaller pots OOP.

Many well-regarded posters in this forum have said they never 3-bet from the BB in two or 3 ways pots for balancing reasons.
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Old 07-05-2018, 05:42 PM   #11
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Re: Going clubbing

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Off the top of my head and without running equities I'd xc. There are so many equity changing river cards for all involved that this seems a good spot to have an under repped hand.
+1000
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Old 07-05-2018, 05:48 PM   #12
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Re: Going clubbing

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Many well-regarded posters in this forum have said they never 3-bet from the BB in two or 3 ways pots for balancing reasons.
Thanks. That was the reason for my question. I don't hate OP's 3 bet due to the weak limper and the fact that AJs is probably ahead of even a tight CO's isolating range, not to mention the limper and button. I'd also want to 3 bet all better hands for pure value and if you're going to have a 3 bet range, it must include a hand like AJs.

Btw- Without the weak limper, I'm fine with 100% flat.
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Old 07-05-2018, 07:36 PM   #13
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Re: Going clubbing

As played I think only calling is correct. It seems like a total disaster to have 3-bets go in on this turn.
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Old 07-05-2018, 08:28 PM   #14
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Re: Going clubbing

Hero calls. Turn Qh. Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls.
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:26 PM   #15
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Re: Going clubbing

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Hero calls. Turn Qh. Hero checks, CO bets, Button calls.
I think you meant river.

CO's range definitely shrinks up (he's probably not value betting TcTx, 9c9x, 6c,6x anymore), but you're still ahead of enough random 9's, T's, and J's that he'd isolate a weak limper with. I'd tend to disregard button in terms of over calling because I don't trust the judgment of those who flat two bets pre-flop in this spot. Heads up v CO it's a clear call, therefore call.

Last edited by Lestat; 07-05-2018 at 10:30 PM. Reason: unless you have very clear read
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Old 07-06-2018, 09:52 AM   #16
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Re: Going clubbing

Yes, I meant river, sorry. Also I am pretty sure it was the 7d not the 7h on the flop, i.e. Hero had a BDFD on the flop, FWIW.
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Old 07-06-2018, 04:03 PM   #17
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Re: Going clubbing

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Originally Posted by Lestat View Post
I think you meant river.

CO's range definitely shrinks up (he's probably not value betting TcTx, 9c9x, 6c,6x anymore), but you're still ahead of enough random 9's, T's, and J's that he'd isolate a weak limper with. I'd tend to disregard button in terms of over calling because I don't trust the judgment of those who flat two bets pre-flop in this spot. Heads up v CO it's a clear call, therefore call.
+1
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Old 07-06-2018, 05:24 PM   #18
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Re: Going clubbing

Xc turn on the j, folding to the q looks ok
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:26 PM   #19
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Re: Going clubbing

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Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Many well-regarded posters in this forum have said they never 3-bet from the BB in two or 3 ways pots for balancing reasons.
In a 4 way pot that features a limper and a cold caller, so not sure how this applies.
Quote:
folding to the q looks ok
Don't fold river.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:17 PM   #20
chillrob
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Re: Going clubbing

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In a 4 way pot that features a limper and a cold caller, so not sure how this applies.
I missed that the button called. Still not sure this is a slam dunk 3 bet preflop, but I don't hate it.
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:09 PM   #21
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Re: Going clubbing

There are big differences in
  • being HU with a wizard
  • being HU with a hand reading decent player
  • being 3 ways with 2 hand readers
  • being 3 ways with a showdown bound terrible player and a thinking player
  • being 4 ways with only one of them able to read hands
  • being 4 ways with nobody with a clue
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:24 PM   #22
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Re: Going clubbing

Quote:
There are big differences in
  • being HU with a wizard
  • being HU with a hand reading decent player
  • being 3 ways with 2 hand readers
  • being 3 ways with a showdown bound terrible player and a thinking player
  • being 4 ways with only one of them able to read hands
  • being 4 ways with nobody with a clue
I'll take Category F for $1,000 Alex.
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:57 PM   #23
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Re: Going clubbing

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Originally Posted by JLot View Post
I'll take Category F for $1,000 Alex.
Me, too. I think that E&F aren't that far apart, because the other two players are conspiring to protect the pot and make the best hand win at showdown. This hand is E, and it is a good spot to push equity edges. I'm guessing that Rob and I read "TAG on the tighter side of TAG, but will occasionally open with an unexpected hand" differently, and that will lead to different conclusions. I see that player as willing to isolate a single limper in the HJ from the CO a lot more often.
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