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Old 02-10-2018, 03:47 PM   #1
ninefingershuffle
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Dumb Hand 20/40

10 handed.

Neither Villain is truly horrible and V2 is actually pretty good when he wants to be. V1 is losing a bit and recently opened JTo UTG.

V1 opens 5 off the button and V2 calls next in. Folds to me in the BB and I call with red queens.

Flop is T76 all clubs.

V1 bets, V2 folds, I c/r, V1 three bets and I call.

Turn is a red ace.

I check, V1 bets.
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Old 02-10-2018, 05:54 PM   #2
DonkeyOnTilt
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
10 handed.

Neither Villain is truly horrible and V2 is actually pretty good when he wants to be. V1 is losing a bit and recently opened JTo UTG.

V1 opens 5 off the button and V2 calls next in. Folds to me in the BB and I call with red queens.

Flop is T76 all clubs.

V1 bets, V2 folds, I c/r, V1 three bets and I call.

Turn is a red ace.

I check, V1 bets.
I'm calling down and chalking it up to part of the cost of flatting big hands in the big though I'm sure you'll have to fold to clubs or similarly bad cards.
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Old 02-10-2018, 06:00 PM   #3
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Question Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
10 handed.

Neither Villain is truly horrible and V2 is actually pretty good when he wants to be. V1 is losing a bit and recently opened JTo UTG.

V1 opens 5 off the button and V2 calls next in. Folds to me in the BB and I call with red queens.

Flop is T76 all clubs.

V1 bets, V2 folds, I c/r, V1 three bets and I call.

Turn is a red ace.

I check, V1 bets.
I wouldn’t check raise the flop probably. As played pretty easy call down
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Old 02-10-2018, 06:51 PM   #4
OnTheRail15
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

I wouldn’t xr flop but as played I would 4b/lead safe turns (not this one)


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Old 02-10-2018, 07:04 PM   #5
ninefingershuffle
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

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I wouldn’t xr flop but as played I would 4b/lead safe turns (not this one)


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But he can check back so many turns if I don’t c/r?
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Old 02-10-2018, 07:33 PM   #6
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

I think he also has a ton of incentive to barrel the turn with his range on this texture, especially true if he has a chking range here otf.


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Old 02-11-2018, 10:39 PM   #7
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

I think 4 bet flop is the play but I would wait for the turn here as well instead of the initial CR.

As played, I would donk the turn since I would probably donk an Ace here and it will get checked back a decent amount.

Last edited by mongidig; 02-11-2018 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 02-11-2018, 10:41 PM   #8
OnTheRail15
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

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As played, I would donk the turn since I would probably donk an Ace here.


Why?
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Old 02-12-2018, 01:36 AM   #9
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

Donking the turn with this hand is dumb.

I'd usually delay til the turn as well as OTR mentioned.
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Old 02-12-2018, 10:04 AM   #10
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

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Originally Posted by OnTheRail15 View Post
Why?
The villian is described as "not truly horrific" which I take as he is at minimum not good and probably bad. Bad players b/3b flops and check turns on drawy boards like this. I think he can have flush draws, straight draws, and combo draws. He can also have a few hands that we beat that he is 3 betting for value. This is why I like 4 betting the flop in the first place. Since we didn't 4 bet the flop, I think we should donk the turn as played.

If I feel strongly that the villian will continue betting then I would check.

I originally thought that the hero 3 bet pf so when the Ace hit on the turn that had to be scary for the villian. I still think that donking turn is fine given my read of the situation.
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Old 02-12-2018, 01:25 PM   #11
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
Since we didn't 4 bet the flop, I think we should donk the turn as played.
Seems like this allows villain to play perfectly. He's never folding a better hand or draw and will semi-bluff and value raise often enough to make us regret putting in 2 turn bets on gnarly rivers.
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Old 02-12-2018, 07:53 PM   #12
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

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Seems like this allows villain to play perfectly. He's never folding a better hand or draw and will semi-bluff and value raise often enough to make us regret putting in 2 turn bets on gnarly rivers.
I agree with this. As played c/c seems best though I'm in the camp of jamming flop.
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Old 02-12-2018, 09:56 PM   #13
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

3b pre is GTO before there weren't evidence so it was debatable but now there is. Flop not sure what best way to play but it def. not a fix strategy. Most likely mix of all three strategy donk/c.r/cc

Last edited by DonJuan; 02-12-2018 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 02-13-2018, 05:41 AM   #14
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

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Originally Posted by DonJuan View Post
3b pre is GTO before there weren't evidence so it was debatable but now there is. Flop not sure what best way to play but it def. not a fix strategy. Most likely mix of all three strategy donk/c.r/cc


Not saying you are wrong about pre but what is the new evidence?
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:49 AM   #15
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

One of the program that you could buy/run would provide that evidence
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Old 02-13-2018, 11:44 AM   #16
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

so what would that computer read as a SB 3 bet GTO range ?
AA to A2o to Q2s then skip to 22 ? 45% range?
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Old 02-13-2018, 01:45 PM   #17
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

Regarding GTO on BB ranges.

- I agree intuitively that 3 betting QQ the majority of the time would be the GTO solution for this particular hand.
- I also agree that humans are really bad at creating GTO strategies on the fly in a live setting, and having a strategy that is always "good" but maybe not perfect is going to be fine.

So not saying it's not worth it to develop balanced 3 bet ranges from the BB here, just that I'd want to immerse myself in the data and try to understand what the bots are doing before blindly emulating their preflop strategy and going from there.

Also, it's definitely worth considering 3 betting the BB again, as the general trend has been a decline in cbet freq as more and more people catch on to the "flat entire continue range" strategy.
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Old 02-13-2018, 06:06 PM   #18
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

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Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
Regarding GTO on BB ranges.

- I agree intuitively that 3 betting QQ the majority of the time would be the GTO solution for this particular hand.
- I also agree that humans are really bad at creating GTO strategies on the fly in a live setting, and having a strategy that is always "good" but maybe not perfect is going to be fine.

So not saying it's not worth it to develop balanced 3 bet ranges from the BB here, just that I'd want to immerse myself in the data and try to understand what the bots are doing before blindly emulating their preflop strategy and going from there.

Also, it's definitely worth considering 3 betting the BB again, as the general trend has been a decline in cbet freq as more and more people catch on to the "flat entire continue range" strategy.
I think the word GTO needs to go away. It's way over discussed considering the games that 95% of us play in. Just exploit.

Flatting the BB is still the play in my opinion. It's true players don't C-bet 100% anymore, however, the benefits of the flat still outway the benefits of getting the money in pre. When you 3 bet pre, you take away inducing bluffs in a smaller pot. You also miss out on potential implied odds with your bigger hands.

I don't mind mixing in a 3 bet pre against certain player types. This is still rare though.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:21 PM   #19
ninefingershuffle
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

My general rule of thumb is that I flat heads up or three way, unless the villains are both in late position. This is a regular game and three betting out of the B.B. against players with a clue isn’t something I want to do.

Re the flop, once again, thanks OTR, I’m on board.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:29 PM   #20
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I think the word GTO needs to go away. It's way over discussed considering the games that 95% of us play in. Just exploit.

Flatting the BB is still the play in my opinion. It's true players don't C-bet 100% anymore, however, the benefits of the flat still outway the benefits of getting the money in pre. When you 3 bet pre, you take away inducing bluffs in a smaller pot. You also miss out on potential implied odds with your bigger hands.

I don't mind mixing in a 3 bet pre against certain player types. This is still rare though.
My rules was the same as everyone else with flatting 3+way. But like I said new information came in that disapprove that theory. Reading this remind me with family guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKZJdaiJF84 . You give the program rules on how to play and it just plays itself millions+ of hands multi-way. It adds or subtracts hands and try to max. it +ev everything else is sub optimal.

The evident just prove to you that in the long run this is + X ev. I am not good enough to play be able to gain more +ev on a lot of flop. O btw pls carry on conversation on how to play this flop when the solution is mix strategy.
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:30 PM   #21
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

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Originally Posted by DonJuan View Post
One of the program that you could buy/run would provide that evidence


Pio does 3 way?
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:43 PM   #22
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

Pio is so 2 years ago
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:31 PM   #23
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

MONKEY!!
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:21 PM   #24
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I think the word GTO needs to go away. It's way over discussed considering the games that 95% of us play in. Just exploit.

Flatting the BB is still the play in my opinion. It's true players don't C-bet 100% anymore, however, the benefits of the flat still outway the benefits of getting the money in pre. When you 3 bet pre, you take away inducing bluffs in a smaller pot. You also miss out on potential implied odds with your bigger hands.

I don't mind mixing in a 3 bet pre against certain player types. This is still rare though.
I think studying gto is necessary if you’re playing online.

However I would agree that the term itself is pretty useless ; if you can’t describe your strategy without having to use the term, you might not understand it as well as you think you do.
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:24 PM   #25
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Re: Dumb Hand 20/40

“”understand what the bots are doing before blindly emulating their preflop strategy and going from there. “”

I think this is an important point.
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