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Old 04-29-2018, 03:50 PM   #1
mongidig
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The draft is over.

20/40 9 handed.

I open UTG with QsQh...I have a tight image....UTG+1 3 bets(TT+ AQo+, AJs+ KQs+)....CO caps (TT+ AKo+ )and we both call. The CO is a good TAG pro.

Ts3d2c...Checked to CO who bets....What should we do?

I'm not 100% sure what the CO does with TT's or JJ's here pre.

Last edited by mongidig; 04-29-2018 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:38 PM   #2
ninefingershuffle
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Re: The draft is over.

I’d just call.
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Old 04-29-2018, 10:56 PM   #3
maka2184
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Re: The draft is over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
20/40 9 handed.

I open UTG with QsQh...I have a tight image....UTG+1 3 bets(TT+ AQo+, AJs+ KQs+)....CO caps (TT+ AKo+ )and we both call. The CO is a good TAG pro.

Ts3d2c...Checked to CO who bets....What should we do?

I'm not 100% sure what the CO does with TT's or JJ's here pre.
As played I think
Call > Raise > Fold on flop.

Alternatively, a suggestion a former LAGTAG pro friend recommended was to donk bet fliop with intention of calling down vs 1 raise. Donk bet plan also has benefit of potentially making AK by CO fold if UTG+1 raises flop vs donk bet on flop by HERO UTG.

If I was playing in real time, I most likely would have just chk called flop.
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Old 04-30-2018, 01:31 PM   #4
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Re: The draft is over.

Donk is bad. Then they trap you on the turn.
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Old 04-30-2018, 02:08 PM   #5
maka2184
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Re: The draft is over.

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
Donk is bad. Then they trap you on the turn.
+1

I never/rarely donk bet which probably is a leak on my part so thought it was an idea to consider.

As noted previously I'd call flop as played by OP.
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Old 04-30-2018, 03:07 PM   #6
dead.money
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Re: The draft is over.

Is the UTG+1 guy a fishy player? Could CO being trying to isolate him here? Why are we giving CO credit for KK or AA? Seems like an easy raise to me? What am I missing?
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Old 04-30-2018, 03:57 PM   #7
mongidig
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Re: The draft is over.

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Originally Posted by dead.money View Post
Is the UTG+1 guy a fishy player? Could CO being trying to isolate him here? Why are we giving CO credit for KK or AA? Seems like an easy raise to me? What am I missing?
UTG+1 is fishy post, but his pre flop range is tight.

I doubt the CO is trying to isolate a Tight UTG and UTG+1.
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:46 PM   #8
dead.money
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Re: The draft is over.

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
UTG+1 is fishy post, but his pre flop range is tight.

I doubt the CO is trying to isolate a Tight UTG and UTG+1.

What would you say UTG+1's range is preflop, given the 3bet? You're only behind to over pairs are the 2 villian's ranges that heavy towards big pairs that a raise is wrong here?
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Old 04-30-2018, 08:40 PM   #9
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Re: The draft is over.

Is preflop capper always betting AK on the flop when checked to on T high flop? Seems reasonable for them to do so since their range is like Pairs and AK only, and AK is possibly the best hand or tied.
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Old 04-30-2018, 11:55 PM   #10
RobA
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Re: The draft is over.

Mongidig -- Strong work with all the interesting hands over the past few months

This general situation happens all the time. Is it worse to potentially lay AK good odds to continue, or is it worse to overplay your hand and let AA, KK or TT make the max against you?

curious what others think about how to approach this general predicament that comes up all the time
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:54 AM   #11
ninefingershuffle
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Re: The draft is over.

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Originally Posted by dead.money View Post
Is the UTG+1 guy a fishy player? Could CO being trying to isolate him here? Why are we giving CO credit for KK or AA? Seems like an easy raise to me? What am I missing?
People don’t cold cap after an UTG raise and UTG+1 three bet all that light
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Old 05-01-2018, 03:45 AM   #12
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Re: The draft is over.

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
Donk is bad. Then they trap you on the turn.
Same can be said for xr.

Btw- I don't hate a donk as much as others. I realize ranges are narrow, but QQ (imo) still has enough equity to make sure a bet goes in on every street. Also, leading flop and turn pressures utg+1 into defining his hand for the precise reason that people are fearing a delay from CO. Sometimes you just get coolered by AA, KK, or TT. That's limit poker.
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:27 AM   #13
ninefingershuffle
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Re: The draft is over.

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Originally Posted by Kevin J View Post
Same can be said for xr.

Btw- I don't hate a donk as much as others. I realize ranges are narrow, but QQ (imo) still has enough equity to make sure a bet goes in on every street. Also, leading flop and turn pressures utg+1 into defining his hand for the precise reason that people are fearing a delay from CO. Sometimes you just get coolered by AA, KK, or TT. That's limit poker.
It is three way and it was capped by the first three players. We best two hands AK and JJ. Are we really worried about missing a bet on the flop?
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:05 PM   #14
mongidig
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Re: The draft is over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobA View Post
Mongidig -- Strong work with all the interesting hands over the past few months

This general situation happens all the time. Is it worse to potentially lay AK good odds to continue, or is it worse to overplay your hand and let AA, KK or TT make the max against you?

curious what others think about how to approach this general predicament that comes up all the time
Thanks Rob! I haven't played a lot the last couple years and just trying to get rid of the rust. I'm hoping to inject a little life into the forum.

The more I think about this hand, the more I feel that going passive is the right approach.
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:24 PM   #15
mongidig
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Re: The draft is over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin J View Post
Same can be said for xr.

Btw- I don't hate a donk as much as others. I realize ranges are narrow, but QQ (imo) still has enough equity to make sure a bet goes in on every street. Also, leading flop and turn pressures utg+1 into defining his hand for the precise reason that people are fearing a delay from CO. Sometimes you just get coolered by AA, KK, or TT. That's limit poker.
The problem with this play is that you are not always going to be called down on every street with worse. Donking gives both players free information and therefore allows them to play more appropriately. You're not donking here with AQ or AK are you! You're probably not donking TT's KK's or AA's. What's left in your range? I agree that your hand is strong enough to put in 1 bet per street. Unfortunately, you're not going to always actualize that 1 bet per street and sometimes will have to pay more.
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:37 PM   #16
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Re: The draft is over.

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Originally Posted by ninefingershuffle View Post
It is three way and it was capped by the first three players. We best two hands AK and JJ. Are we really worried about missing a bet on the flop?
I'm not questioning OP's ability to assess ranges, but I don't think they're quite this narrow, especially v. good pro in CO with an utg+1 that plays fishy post. And even if AK and JJ ARE the only hands we beat, is QQ that much of an equity dog? (I haven't Stoved it).
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Old 05-01-2018, 02:13 PM   #17
Kevin J
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Re: The draft is over.

I'm not arguing. Just think it's an interesting hand to discuss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
The problem with this play is that you are not always going to be called down on every street with worse.
Which I think is countered by the times you're ahead and give a free card to two players if CO decides to check back either flop or turn (over cards and back doors happen). I guess my line would depend on CO's continuation frequency on both flop and turn.

Quote:
Donking gives both players free information and therefore allows them to play more appropriately.
First, I should say I don't normally donk either, but just pointing out I don't yet see how it's terrible. I mainly disagree with this because you still have your whole utg range, which includes AA, KK TT, etc. I guess if you're never donking these hands then yeah, never do it. I guess also don't do it if you're not comfortable bet/3betting a lot of turns with AA and KK.

Quote:
You're not donking here with AQ or AK are you! You're probably not donking TT's KK's or AA's. What's left in your range?
Again, I think the dry board and the fact you still have your whole range makes donking a bit more attractive with these hands.

Quote:
Unfortunately, you're not going to always actualize that 1 bet per street and sometimes will have to pay more.
I'm not too worried about sometimes having to pay more as long as the pot size correlates with what I feel is the strength of my hand. And I feel QQ is strong enough here, although you could easily be right because you're the better judge of opps ranges here. I can think of many CO capping ranges that would leave me playing cautiously against. I just think a good pro is a bit wider than others seem to think with an utg+1 who plays fishy post.
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Old 05-01-2018, 02:37 PM   #18
mongidig
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Re: The draft is over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin J View Post
I'm not arguing. Just think it's an interesting hand to discuss.



Which I think is countered by the times you're ahead and give a free card to two players if CO decides to check back either flop or turn (over cards and back doors happen). I guess my line would depend on CO's continuation frequency on both flop and turn.



First, I should say I don't normally donk either, but just pointing out I don't yet see how it's terrible. I mainly disagree with this because you still have your whole utg range, which includes AA, KK TT, etc. I guess if you're never donking these hands then yeah, never do it. I guess also don't do it if you're not comfortable bet/3betting a lot of turns with AA and KK.



Again, I think the dry board and the fact you still have your whole range makes donking a bit more attractive with these hands.



I'm not too worried about sometimes having to pay more as long as the pot size correlates with what I feel is the strength of my hand. And I feel QQ is strong enough here, although you could easily be right because you're the better judge of opps ranges here. I can think of many CO capping ranges that would leave me playing cautiously against. I just think a good pro is a bit wider than others seem to think with an utg+1 who plays fishy post.
I appreciate the discussion. You bring up good points.

How much wider do you think a good player is capping pre here? I may be slighly off on the ranges given,but not by much.

I'm sure, donk, cr, cc are all viable under the right circumstances. Check call is probably the safe middle ground absent fully understanding the villain ranges.
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Old 05-01-2018, 03:05 PM   #19
dead.money
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Re: The draft is over.

[QUOTE=ninefingershuffle;53774499]People don’t cold cap after an UTG raise and UTG+1 three bet all that light[/QUOTE

Exactly! So are we hoping they both have AK type of hands? Isn't it likely that one has a big pair? I mean like you said he's not capping light and UTG+1 isn't raising light either. As played hand just doesn't make sense to me? If we are saying that there are enough strong ace combos in their range preflop that we can cold call two more bets with QQ's..ok But then why are we not raising CO's bet on flop? Given action preflop IF you can put either one on a larger pair than QQ's shouldn't you fold?
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:13 PM   #20
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Re: The draft is over.

This shows all more reason to not have a 4b range after UTG and UTG1 raise.
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Old 05-02-2018, 01:35 PM   #21
Kevin J
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Re: The draft is over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
I appreciate the discussion. You bring up good points.

How much wider do you think a good player is capping pre here? I may be slighly off on the ranges given,but not by much.
In thinking about what my range could be (not that I'm nearly as good as most posters here), I don't think I have much of a flat range. phunk suggests not having a 4b, but I think I'd want to cut down BB's odds and capture whatever equity from both blinds if they'd ever play for 3 bets, but not 4. Also, even though I'm sure OP (you) is never open/folding to a cap, our range + position should perform decently if we choose right. But I'm definitely open to benefits of not having a cap range.

utg+1 playing fishy post would somewhat mitigate for me the narrow range you give him pre and I'd probably be pretty close to playing whatever my normal 3b range would be for an utg raiser maybe eliminating the bottom tier. IOW I wouldn't be treating it like good pro raised utg and good pro 3b next to act. But I do like to get in and splash whenever bad players are in. Probably too much so, but for that reason, I think CO's range might not be quite as narrow as some think and I'm not ready to be overly concerned about the 15 combos that beat QQ yet.

I'm also typing this on the fly, so sorry if I'm being dumb about anything lol
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Old 05-02-2018, 02:45 PM   #22
mongidig
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Re: The draft is over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
This shows all more reason to not have a 4b range after UTG and UTG1 raise.
I'd agree if we were in the BB. How is flatting better when we have position and players yet to act behind. Against the ranges I perceive to be up against, my flat range would probably be the same as my cap range. I don't see how this is better than taking advantage of the benefits of capping in what is becoming a big pot.
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Old 05-02-2018, 02:56 PM   #23
mongidig
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Re: The draft is over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin J View Post
In thinking about what my range could be (not that I'm nearly as good as most posters here), I don't think I have much of a flat range. phunk suggests not having a 4b, but I think I'd want to cut down BB's odds and capture whatever equity from both blinds if they'd ever play for 3 bets, but not 4. Also, even though I'm sure OP (you) is never open/folding to a cap, our range + position should perform decently if we choose right. But I'm definitely open to benefits of not having a cap range.

utg+1 playing fishy post would somewhat mitigate for me the narrow range you give him pre and I'd probably be pretty close to playing whatever my normal 3b range would be for an utg raiser maybe eliminating the bottom tier. IOW I wouldn't be treating it like good pro raised utg and good pro 3b next to act. But I do like to get in and splash whenever bad players are in. Probably too much so, but for that reason, I think CO's range might not be quite as narrow as some think and I'm not ready to be overly concerned about the 15 combos that beat QQ yet.

I'm also typing this on the fly, so sorry if I'm being dumb about anything lol
I agree with wanting to play pots against the fishy players. I just don't think you can or should open up your range too much given the ranges I have given even if one player is fishy. His range of potential fishy outcomes is greatly minimized in this tight range situation.

What would your cap range be here? 99+? AQo+? maybe KQs+? AJs+?....
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Old 05-02-2018, 08:59 PM   #24
Kevin J
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Re: The draft is over.

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Originally Posted by mongidig View Post
What would your cap range be here? 99+? AQo+? maybe KQs+? AJs+?....
Again, I'd be more focused on what your utg range is. Even if utg+1 is exactly as tight as you say, I'd still be willing to take slightly negative hot/cold equity in position, especially if blinds play too tight or bad and utg+1 doesn't play well post. This means at least the ranges you give and could be quite a bit wider. Also, this is why I don't really have a flat 3.
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Old 05-03-2018, 02:42 PM   #25
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Re: The draft is over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish View Post
This shows all more reason to not have a 4b range after UTG and UTG1 raise.
Isn't a call the same as a cap when there has been a UTG and UTG+1 raise (absent maniacs)?
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