Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Mid-High Stakes Limit Discussions of mid-high stakes limit Texas Hold'em

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-02-2008, 12:46 AM   #1
jesse8888
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,624
To donk or not to donk...that is the question

Live 20/40 game that has moved from fantastic to just good. A young Asian player that I don't know much about opens the low-jack. He is not overtly retarded. The high-jack and cutoff fold, but the two worst players at the table cold call from the button and small blind (my seat selection is as usual top-notch). They are loose, passive, and in general bad. They peel flops with almost nothing, cold-call preflop way too much, and also miss obvious value bets. I find Q T and call from the big blind.

4 players, 8 small bets

Q 3 4

Small blind checks. To donk or not to donk. That is the question.....
jesse8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 01:05 AM   #2
Captain R
Wot
 
Captain R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Far far away, wild swans skim...
Posts: 7,317
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

Unless pf-raiser is so weak to check anything but top pair, I would c/r.

Ideally you'd like to bet and have lojack raise, but this seems pretty unlikely with the Q as the top card, so c/r for value with the likely best hand.
Captain R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 01:23 AM   #3
jesse8888
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,624
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R View Post
Unless pf-raiser is so weak to check anything but top pair, I would c/r.

Ideally you'd like to bet and have lojack raise, but this seems pretty unlikely with the Q as the top card, so c/r for value with the likely best hand.
So I guess a follow up...if I bet and low-jack raises, am I 3-betting? The two lines I considered at the time where:

1. Check/raise him and take the lead. If he 3-bets, just call him down, perhaps donking safe rivers.

2. Donk into him, hoping he raises. If the others clear out, just call, then donk most turns.

Bet/3-bet felt like too much action at the time....not sure if that makes sense though.
jesse8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 03:03 AM   #4
9.5fingershuffle
Pooh-Bah
 
9.5fingershuffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Trapped in a newspaper palace.
Posts: 5,351
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

How would you play 333 here Jesse?
9.5fingershuffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 03:06 AM   #5
3rdCheckRaise
veteran
 
3rdCheckRaise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: sit 10
Posts: 2,873
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

I like second line much better. Keep the pressure on but don't go off for too many bets.
3rdCheckRaise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 06:08 AM   #6
private joker
Most Definitely
 
private joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Am I the boxer or the bag?
Posts: 25,244
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

If I bet, I'm not sure how awesome I'd feel if the PFR raised. This is a totally dry board, as dry as it gets. What PFR hands would raise a flop donker that still lose to QT? I mean if I had 99-JJ here and someone donked into me, I would probably just call and re-evaluate on the turn. With no draws out there, there isn't much of an upside to raising pairs worse than a Q. And I'd never raise AK, since a Qxx flop is the worst flop ever for AK.

I'd probably checkraise the field and play very cautiously if PFR 3-bet. Might be able to find a fold on the turn depending on reads. If I c/r and he just called, I'd bet every street for value from then on.
private joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 12:53 PM   #7
jesse8888
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,624
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

Quote:
Originally Posted by cgrohman View Post
How would you play 333 here Jesse?
I'd check/raise it to trap the other two guys in the pot for one bet since they'd be drawing dead. Here they are most definitely not and I wouldn't mind folding them out of what will by then be a 10+ small bet pot.
jesse8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 01:45 PM   #8
Captain R
Wot
 
Captain R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Far far away, wild swans skim...
Posts: 7,317
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

Quote:
Originally Posted by private joker View Post
If I bet, I'm not sure how awesome I'd feel if the PFR raised.
I wouldn't feel awesome. Obviously the best result is you bet, everyone folds or you bet and some people call and then fold the turn. But having the preflop raiser raise is not a bad result in a medium-large pot if he is capable of doing this with AK/pocket pair some % of the time.

HOWEVER, and this is the key point, I find it really unlikely in this particular hand/board that the preflop raiser in is going to raise with something you have beat, so I think the better play is to c/r for value because you should be ahead of his range here.

BTW, this line is assuming bad players are going to peel with like A6, any backdoor flush draws, KJ, etc.

Quote:
And I'd never raise AK, since a Qxx flop is the worst flop ever for AK.
Why is Qxx different than other boards you might raise with AK overcards? Because there is no draw you could potentially be ahead of?
Captain R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 01:49 PM   #9
Captain R
Wot
 
Captain R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Far far away, wild swans skim...
Posts: 7,317
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
So I guess a follow up...if I bet and low-jack raises, am I 3-betting?
Now that is just crazy talk...
Captain R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 02:07 PM   #10
pohuist
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: State of Ignorance
Posts: 1,657
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
I'd check/raise it to trap the other two guys in the pot for one bet since they'd be drawing dead. Here they are most definitely not and I wouldn't mind folding them out of what will by then be a 10+ small bet pot.
If you always c/r here with sets, then your donk is exploitable.
pohuist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 03:33 PM   #11
private joker
Most Definitely
 
private joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Am I the boxer or the bag?
Posts: 25,244
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R View Post

Why is Qxx different than other boards you might raise with AK overcards? Because there is no draw you could potentially be ahead of?

Because you're reverse dominated more often (two of the most common cold-calling hands, AQ and KQ, both of which you had crushed PF, are now crushing you) and the Q just hits a lot of cold-calling ranges.
private joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 03:44 PM   #12
9.5fingershuffle
Pooh-Bah
 
9.5fingershuffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Trapped in a newspaper palace.
Posts: 5,351
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

Ok, then donk.
9.5fingershuffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 03:50 PM   #13
Tryptamean
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,844
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

donk wtf? no way, this flop gets c-bet like 10000% of the time... go for the c/r and make these chumps pay.

also, your opponents dont give a **** what you do with sets here
Tryptamean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 03:57 PM   #14
KitCloudkicker
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
KitCloudkicker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 8,414
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryptamean View Post
donk wtf? no way, this flop gets c-bet like 10000% of the time... go for the c/r and make these chumps pay.

also, your opponents dont give a **** what you do with sets here
this

also lol @ not being "exploitable" having any importance in this spot. does hoss tbf play 20/40 now?
KitCloudkicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 04:42 PM   #15
donking
journeyman
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: From California
Posts: 246
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

I like the c/r line.
donking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2008, 11:53 PM   #16
jesse8888
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,624
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

Should have checked 'em and raised 'em I think, but I went with the donk plan. Low Jack raised, both fish folded (and yes, they'd have peeled stuff like A6 and KJ and probably much worse for a single bet) and I called. Also, lol along with Kit at not being exploitable mattering here. It simply doesn't in this game.

Turn brick. I check, he checks. River 9. I bet, he raises, I fold?
jesse8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 12:02 PM   #17
vanman
journeyman
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: trying to play better than tagfish
Posts: 305
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

this is why I pretty much always c/c to induce when people make a free card looking play on me when i'm oop. because this pretty much sucks now. I can't see calling unless you've got some kind of previous info on him getting out of line with bluff raising rivers in not very big pots. which is pretty rare.
vanman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2008, 12:55 PM   #18
jesse8888
Yes, you barred
 
jesse8888's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,624
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanman View Post
this is why I pretty much always c/c to induce when people make a free card looking play on me when i'm oop. because this pretty much sucks now. I can't see calling unless you've got some kind of previous info on him getting out of line with bluff raising rivers in not very big pots. which is pretty rare.
Two times yesterday in my game I bet in a spot like this and got called by naked AK. It's as if they are saying "well, he knows I have AK and he bet, so I better call cause he's probably bluffing cause he knows what I have". It's truly incredible.

All these problems go away if I check/raise the flop.
jesse8888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2008, 11:16 PM   #19
basecrdshp
adept
 
basecrdshp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 761
Re: To donk or not to donk...that is the question

You have terrible position. C/R is preferred
basecrdshp is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online